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SolutionHunter





Joined: 14 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:54 am    Post subject: Afghanistan > End Game > infertile poppy soil Reply with quote

Poppy Soil == infertile would end the Afghan war.

Ever notice how hockey players shake hands at the end of a series even though just minutes ago they were fighting? That's because when what they've been fighting for is no longer available, they have no reason to fight.

Same way could be in Afghanistan. If - if - the war is about control of poppy cultivation land, then as soon as that land becomes permanently infertile for poppies, the war for it will end.

I wouldn't recommend making the soil infertile for all crops - the citizens still need some farm income. I recommend asking bio scientists to see if there's a possible bio-engineered solution that would selectively block poppy production.
Rusty Bedsprings





Joined: 06 Dec 2008
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votes: 5

PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grow wine, whatever those trees are that wine come from (grape trees?) prevent people from growing anything on that land for at three years after the last grape tree died. The soil gets changed by that tree for some reason.
mrsocko





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Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IS that what they are fighting about in Afganistan? Here I thought it was religion all this time.
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
IS that what they are fighting about in Afganistan? Here I thought it was religion all this time.


The war is about religion, but its the poppy fields that pay for it. Most of the "Taliban" soldiers are not really Taliban, they are starving farmers the Taliban pays to fight (with poppy money).
Take away the money, the mullahs would be fighting with sticks and riding emaciated camels in battle.
SFrank85





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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
IS that what they are fighting about in Afganistan? Here I thought it was religion all this time.


This war has very little to do with religion. Who are the competing forces against the Taliban? This is not the pope’s army fighting this war, it is NATO’s. We are not these to convert these people to Christianity. The Taliban might fight in the name of Islam, but we are not fighting over there as Christians.
Rusty Bedsprings





Joined: 06 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frank: While you are right that NATO is not in afghanistan as a christian force, we are there however to fight muslim extremists. The Taliban do what they do because of their religion. So one could argue that this is a religious war to a certain extent, to the extent that we are trying to extinguish a certain religious factions will to fight.
FF_Canuck





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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Afghanistan > End Game > infertile poppy soil Reply with quote

SolutionHunter wrote:
Poppy Soil == infertile would end the Afghan war.

Ever notice how hockey players shake hands at the end of a series even though just minutes ago they were fighting? That's because when what they've been fighting for is no longer available, they have no reason to fight.

Same way could be in Afghanistan. If - if - the war is about control of poppy cultivation land, then as soon as that land becomes permanently infertile for poppies, the war for it will end.

I wouldn't recommend making the soil infertile for all crops - the citizens still need some farm income. I recommend asking bio scientists to see if there's a possible bio-engineered solution that would selectively block poppy production.


Part of the reason the Afghans grow poppies is that there is little else they can grow in much of that soil, which is little better than dirt. Part of it has to do with first-world agriculture subsidies, too.

You're looking at this the wrong way, IMO, and using the same failing logic behind the American crop-burning policy. Farmers are interested in putting food on their tables, first and foremost. Many of them hate the Taliban, and would rather not deal with them - but when your choice are presumptively nice foreigners who burn your crops, and tell you what you're allowed to grow, and the Taliban, who are nasty but slightly less foreign, and who will actually buy your crops, the choice is made for you.

There's no magic bullet situation, but something we could be doing is hooking up pharmaceutical companies with coalition forces and the ANA. Pharmas use the opium to make morphine and deriviatives, they provide the cash to military officers who act as buyers, direct from the farmers. It builds a relationship between the military and the farmers, it cuts down on narcotic production (and boosts medical drug production), it moves some locals out of the Taliban's influence. You still have to go out and kill bad guys, but something like this would make them easier to find, and make it harder for them to operate.
Mac





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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fiscalconservative wrote:
The war is about religion,,,,snip....

The war is about power, control and money. Nothing more.

-Mac
mrsocko





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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The war is about power, control and money. Nothing more.


Religion in other words! :P
SFrank85





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Location: Toronto - Scarborough Southwest

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rusty Bedsprings wrote:
Frank: While you are right that NATO is not in afghanistan as a christian force, we are there however to fight muslim extremists. The Taliban do what they do because of their religion. So one could argue that this is a religious war to a certain extent, to the extent that we are trying to extinguish a certain religious factions will to fight.


Maybe so, however there is no competing religious force fighting them based on religion. If this was a war about religion, there would be a Christian Afghan leader propped up by NATO.
don muntean





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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
fiscalconservative wrote:
The war is about religion,,,,snip....

The war is about power, control and money. Nothing more.

-Mac


Yup and the various trappings of religion are just so much engaged to that objective - the primary impetus being desire for power and control. One cannot call their ideology religion even in the most broad sense.
machiavelli





Joined: 11 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All Canadians, who are not left-wing extremist or terrorists coddlers, are demanding that the the opposition parties and the left-wing whack-jobs in the press gallery explain why they are so, so concerned about the alleged mis-treatment of their beloved Afghanistan terrorist heroes.

Why are the far-left opposition party members and the left bias, anti Conservative Party press so willing to believe the second-hand, unnamed, flimsy,alleged "evidence" promulgated by a whack-job, terrorist loving, far-left diplomat, Colvin rather than their government? This terrorist loving traitor, who has no creditability,spins second-hand rumours from his terrorists friends who are attempting to discredit the Canadian troops by lying as they are trained to do in the Al Qaeda manual.

These, of course, are the same terrorist hugging opposition members who are extremely concerned about the human rights of terrorists, but who despise our troops and everything that they stand for, and have always been against the war on terrorism.
Roger Langille





Joined: 29 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Afghanistan > End Game > infertile poppy soil Reply with quote

SolutionHunter wrote:
Poppy Soil == infertile would end the Afghan war.

Ever notice how hockey players shake hands at the end of a series even though just minutes ago they were fighting? That's because when what they've been fighting for is no longer available, they have no reason to fight.

Same way could be in Afghanistan. If - if - the war is about control of poppy cultivation land, then as soon as that land becomes permanently infertile for poppies, the war for it will end.

I wouldn't recommend making the soil infertile for all crops - the citizens still need some farm income. I recommend asking bio scientists to see if there's a possible bio-engineered solution that would selectively block poppy production.


A few Nukes would level the middle east and end it too
But that does not mean we should do it though

The same with Poppies and Pot
We have no more right to force these people to stop growing what they have for thousands of years then they do to force use to stop growing barley and making wiskey with it.
Roger Langille





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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

don muntean wrote:
Mac wrote:
fiscalconservative wrote:
The war is about religion,,,,snip....

The war is about power, control and money. Nothing more.

-Mac


Yup and the various trappings of religion are just so much engaged to that objective - the primary impetus being desire for power and control. One cannot call their ideology religion even in the most broad sense.


The War is a counter attack to an attack that killed 3500 Americans, 500 Brits, 50 Canadians and many others on 911 and it was only one attack of many around the world including Europe, Asia. There where 700 Ausies taken out with one bomb, A lot of Russians in a number of attacks, the London Train Bombings,Madrid Bombing in Spain, also Germany, Holland, France,and others, even India.
Ian MacGillivary





Joined: 23 May 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The core issue at this point not what the war is being fought over, but rather what is the end game.

Myself, I would like to see a secular, western country come out of Afghanistan.

That of course will take time, however how can we speed it up.

Simply put, a change in strategy. It will take considerable buy in, considerable resources, however I think it will help.

First off, we need the military, secondly we need the NGOs, and thirdly we need corporate interests.

So, let us talk about the military strategy. Simply put, fighting the cold war has its place, as does fighting the three block war. What is needed is more troops, more equipment and more mobility. These troops are needed for many reasons. One to clear out the Taliban from the countryside, as well as seal the border with Pakistan.

Twenty to thirty thousand troops deployed along the border, with sufficient mobility assets and base positions to react, coupled with an excellent C4I Infrastructure from UAVs, to sensors, to satellite imagery will be able to seal the flow of arms, and equipment in. Also, with that, a proper border needs to be constructed, at least within the short term. Perhaps not to the scale of the Inner German Border, however it needs to be done. Once the border is in better shape, it needs to be done exclusively by Coalition Troops and not the ANA / ANP, they simply aren't reliable yet.

Redeploying the ANA /ANP to Kandahar and Kabul for security will allow them more work up in a calmer environment. I would recommend more employment of foreign observers and advisor's. These will allow for more professionalizing. They will also have a more vested interest in security. I would not touch other ANA /ANP deployments, as they need to be the face of this.

Second off, we need to expand Provincial Reconstruction Teams, at the rate of one per each district. These need to be multi national in composition, to allow divergent perspectives in make up. These teams need to come under ISAF headquarters, and there needs to be a national reconstruction plan for Afghanistan. One other deployment that is needed is for Engineers and Medical Personnel. Its the best way to win hearts and minds, start deploying engineers and medical personnel in composite, self supporting units. I would allocate it like so.

Composite Unit
Headquarters
Command Post
Administrative Section
Logistics Section
Maintenance Section
Signals Section.
Construction Engineer Troop X2
3x Engineer Section
1x Troop Headquarters
Maintenance Platoon
3x Maintenance Section.
1x Troop Headquarters
Composite Medical Platoon.
1x Medical Section.
1x Preventative Medical Section.
1x Dental Section.
1x Platoon Headquarters
Engineer Water Purification Section.
Defense and Security Platoon (IFV)
3x Infantry Section
1x Weapons Detachment
1x Platoon Headquarters.
Civil Affairs and liaison Section


These should be built up through Nato, at the rate of one per district. Their role is of course to work along side the provincial reconstruction team, however on a mobile basis. They are to go through their district or area of operation, stop, liaise with the Afghanistan people, work with villages to help solve their immediate needs, help provide them with some basic medical treatment, some basic repairs on vehicles, farm equipment, houses, buildings. Allow them access to clean water (if needed), as well as start to build a rapport with them. Showing the flag is important. They need to work and move on as an initial step, while allowing the Provincial Reconstruction teams time to work on larger projects. Once we can show that we are not all enemies, rather that we want to help, as time moves on, the Taliban will see its support base melt away from the inside. For example, if each team spent 5-7 days per village and moved on, you would see a considerable change in the situation.

We also need to focus more development aid on low threat sectors, to start building a bulwark of support and positive opinion. For PRTs and these composite groups, they will need to start trying to swell support to our ranks. These composite units will be an excellent use of reserve forces. We are not going forward with trying to change their life or culture with these groups, nor to destroy them, rather we need to take care of these people.

On the national level, a strategy needs to be worked out for the reconstruction, and a central administration provided. All NGOs need to buy in with this and work on a similar page and within the framework. I would recommend first is food, we need to be able to feed this population for now, the next is of course agricultural aid in turning poppy fields into crop fields. The third is of course access to education and medical care, finally, infrastructure and economic development. It is a ten year time frame, at least for this, and we need to settle into the long haul. After time, the threat will be reduced. However, we need to not save it all, we need to maintain the low security sectors, seal off the border with Pakistan to cut the inflow of arms and equipment, and buy ourselves some nice Khmer Pass copies of muskets. (Look it up, it's funny.)

Next, once we have our reconstruction efforts in place, we finally need to move forward and secure the country, we need of course need to maintain the pressure through out on the Taliban, however as we slowly bring people on our side, we can allow for greater security and greater trust.

The next thing is of course, an economic strategy. One thing I would look at is tax credits to Canadian Companies who invest in Afghanistan. That is, if company A wants to build a factory, or buy food from an Afghanistan group of people or enter into contracts with them, the profits, import and export duties shouldn't be taxed. This will allow people to help develop the economy, and make people more willing to support us. The next thing is of course, to encourage donations to development within Afghanistan. We should market a series of special bonds, or allow tax credited donations to fund some more aid and reconstruction.

Further more. Once these basic principles are in step, we of course need to develop the country to the modern world. First they need roads, good roads, efficient roads, as well as good rail and air links out of the country. The second off is that they do need schools and hospitals. These could be staffed by NGOs or CIDA personnel to start with, however slowly as the government expands, we will be able to transition more to the government. One thing the west should look at is educational exchanges. Allow government employees, soldiers, and police to come over to the west and study, allow generous acceptance and funding for those who want to study in western universities. As that goes forward, things will calm themselves down, as a more educated people come forward. Slowly, modern telecommunications will come, and more advanced systems. It is just going to take time. Slowly, the Taliban will find a population who is prosperous, successful, safe and uninterested in their dealings.

However, we need to maintain the course, we need more troops, and we need to work to build the hearts and minds of the people.
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