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potan





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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:41 pm    Post subject: NDP's deputy leader denies Israel's right to exist Reply with quote

In the video Libby Davies clearly states that the "occupation" of Palestine started in 1948. This is the same language that Hamas uses.


Link
don muntean





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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:27 pm    Post subject: Re: NDP's deputy leader denies Israel's right to exist Reply with quote

potan wrote:
In the video Libby Davies clearly states that the "occupation" of Palestine started in 1948. This is the same language that Hamas uses.


Link


There is NO occupation and there is NO Palestine...Davies makes reference to "Palestine" as though it was some sovereign nation prior to 1948. The NDP are NO friend of Israel. The NDP has too often excused and legitimized Islamists.
bsenka





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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see what was so over the top about what Ms. Davies said. It was a lot more rational that I expected considering the furor it's generating. If anything, I'd say she was deliberately careful not to say anything incendiary, no small feat with that videographer trying desperately to put words into her mouth. Granted, she's clearly getting her dates mixed up, but I'm not seeing where she said most of what she's being accused of.
don muntean





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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bsenka wrote:
I don't see what was so over the top about what Ms. Davies said. It was a lot more rational that I expected considering the furor it's generating. If anything, I'd say she was deliberately careful not to say anything incendiary, no small feat with that videographer trying desperately to put words into her mouth. Granted, she's clearly getting her dates mixed up, but I'm not seeing where she said most of what she's being accused of.


Seeing your recent comments in the "diaper thread" - it doesn't surprise me that you're excusing Davies' comments here...

The standard propaganda of the Iranian backed Islamists who have long hijacked the Palestinian cause - is that Israel is occupying pre-1948 Palestine...the flip side being that Israel has no legitimate claim to any territory...she didn't get her dates mixed up - she's simply slipped out more of the NDP's double speak apologist attitude - where it comes to Islamists - whom they describe as 'freedom fighters'.

It's not the first time that the NDP have played advocate for various Islamist 'freedom fighters'. It doesn't seem to matter to the NDP that these so-called freedom fighters are irregular fighters.

It seems eerily odd that the NDP and other liberals in the west ignore that fact.

Do they genuinely misunderstand what an irregular fighter is? What is the line between legitimate combatant and terrorist? Notwithstanding this attack on Israel's legitimacy being a slip in dates - it does seem that there is always a disproportionate criticism of Israel...
bsenka





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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

don muntean wrote:
Seeing your recent comments in the "diaper thread" - it doesn't surprise me that you're excusing Davies' comments here...


How do you get that? My complaint in that thread is that the CPC is not conservative enough for my liking. That somehow makes me a left-wing sympathizer? Come on.

I'm not arguing with you on her intent, where's she's stood on this issue in the past, or even with the NDPs stance on the issue. I'm simply observing that this video in particular seems pretty tame compared to what people are making of it.
infantry67





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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I certainly dont take the islamist side of things, I'm starting to get fed up with the lack of tolerance when it comes to free speach, and especially when it comes to Israel....people have the right to say STUPID things in a FREE society.
teenagetory





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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't say the words themselves were that out of the norm. I am more upset that she was attending an anti-Israel rally. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. She represents a safe NDP seat, and Jumping Jack isn't going to give her the boot, so I guess we are stuck with her.
don muntean





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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bsenka wrote:
don muntean wrote:
Seeing your recent comments in the "diaper thread" - it doesn't surprise me that you're excusing Davies' comments here...


How do you get that? My complaint in that thread is that the CPC is not conservative enough for my liking. That somehow makes me a left-wing sympathizer? Come on.

I'm not arguing with you on her intent, where's she's stood on this issue in the past, or even with the NDPs stance on the issue. I'm simply observing that this video in particular seems pretty tame compared to what people are making of it.


Your comments in the other thread:

bsenka wrote:
In a lot of ways I agree with the OP. I'm no longer seeing anything conservative about the CPC. They quite simply ARE just another Liberal party. It's tough to stomach, but what's the other choice right now? All the real conservatives vote CHP or Libertarian and watch the Liberals take over again? All of the available options are particularly bad right now, CPC is just the lesser of the evils.


Now of course i don't think you're a lefty sympathizer but - I do think your comments are unfair...I have to say that until around five years ago I used to see the CPC and Stephen Harper as the bad choice - in the least I saw them as 'too conservative' but my views did change over time.

I hear all the complaints about the fiscal imbalances and how that runs counter to conservative principles. Yet there is more to it than that.

I personally believe that it was conservative governance in Ottawa that helped insulate Canada from the financial crises and resultant bailouts we've seen in the U.S. where mortgage issues caused banks to fail etc., as highlighted in the recent [successful] CPC opposition to a "bank tax".

We have to know that there's still a considerable block of Canadian's [not card members of any party] who do not want too Conservative of a government - but they're not interested in Liberal governance either. We need to continue to encourage these Canadians to support a conservative approach to governance in Canada.

I guess one could just say that Canadians expect a certain level of socialism and modifying this tendency isn't an overnight program. Gradual change is more often long term change.

As for Davies' comments...i disagree with your assessment: "I'm simply observing that this video in particular seems pretty tame compared to what people are making of it"

There is more to it than a slip on dates as noted in my other reply...this isn't a matter of free speech - it's about an elected official expressing a revealing position on Israel.

As noted by teenagetory: she was attending an anti-Israel rally - that was the first clue to her intent on the dates reference.

Anyhow...have a great day...
potan





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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

infantry67 wrote:
While I certainly dont take the islamist side of things, I'm starting to get fed up with the lack of tolerance when it comes to free speach, and especially when it comes to Israel....people have the right to say STUPID things in a FREE society.


And in a free society, we have a right to denounce her and call her out on her stupidity.
don muntean





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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

potan wrote:
infantry67 wrote:
While I certainly dont take the islamist side of things, I'm starting to get fed up with the lack of tolerance when it comes to free speach, and especially when it comes to Israel....people have the right to say STUPID things in a FREE society.


And in a free society, we have a right to denounce her and call her out on her stupidity.


Indeed :lol:
infantry67





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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

potan wrote:
infantry67 wrote:
While I certainly dont take the islamist side of things, I'm starting to get fed up with the lack of tolerance when it comes to free speach, and especially when it comes to Israel....people have the right to say STUPID things in a FREE society.


And in a free society, we have a right to denounce her and call her out on her stupidity.


of course
don muntean





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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I made quick notes of the various points so they're not all verbatim:

When asked when the "occupation" started - Davies was offered '67 and '48 - she mentioned '48 [her hesitation wasn't ignorance of the dates it was her deciding if she wanted to state her real thoughts as it being 1948] - her other comments [about the green line for instance] in the interview clearly evidence her biased position.

There is no doubt she believes there is an "occupation" and in her words "it's the longest occupation in the world and people are suffering...I've seen myself what's going on "

"Israel has to remove itself from illegal settlements"

"dismantle the wall"

"drop siege of Gaza"

"people are really suffering in Gaza...cannot even get the basic necessities in and to isolate people to that extent to take away peoples basic rights is to me unconscionable"

has to be a settlement now even if it's "somehow imposed"

"the Palestinians have to have their land back"

"the wall has to go"

when asked if they should 'revert to the green line'..."I've seen what that green line is and how much land has been taken"

no debate on the issue in Canada...political reality on this issue is worse in Canada

claims there is a pro-Israel media bias

claims our government is capitulating to whatever Israel wants

reiterates that this "occupation" issue is not debated especially in the political arena in Canada - called the situation here worse than other places

when asked why people were fearful she stated:

"I think people are very worried about being criticized if you're anti...if you're perceived to be anti Israeli occupation as somehow you're also branded as being antisemitic...new McCarthyism has taken place...people don't feel comfortable speaking out"

When the interviewer was trying to pin down her position on a boycott of Israel she said she wasn't happy with all the questions [but they were her answers] that somehow the interviewer was "pinning everything" on her...I think it was at this point that she looked around at the anti-Israel protest and thought about all of what she had just said [in like less than 5 minutes] and she was a bit freaked out about how her position looked.

Her comment near the start of the interview about "rights" is so much crap as the NDP have their own track record of human rights abuse in Canada!! :roll:

Later I will go over these points and show why they are so spurious...

Incidentally the "fear" Davies speaks of tends more toward people kowtowing the anti-Israel agenda for these irregular fighters [revolutionaries] out of fear of these revolutionaries - seeing that these irregular fighters target those who don't support their agenda...in some cases they target with more than disagreements and criticisms.

These revolutionaries have clearly expressed their global plans and somehow there are those western appeasers who think that sacrificing Israel and the Jews shall somehow save them from the Islamist's revolution.


Last edited by don muntean on Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:09 am; edited 11 times in total
don muntean





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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The wall:



...and that's the so-called moderate leader!!
don muntean





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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh just see the symbiotic value of misinformation and ignorance:

"And for whom are they speaking? In a recent BBC poll, only 23 percent of Canadians had a positive attitude towards Israel and 52 percent had a negative view. Libby is speaking for the majority of Canadians on this issue."

http://rabble.ca/blogs/blogger.....plices-edw

The anti-Zionist A.K.A. the anti-Israel camps just love it when the public sees a "Jewish" person help them disseminate their misinformation campaigns - they think that helps to legitimize their propaganda machine.
don muntean





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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fiction vs. Fact: Israel and the Situation in Gaza
6 Common Fabrications

Since Israel began “Operation Cast Lead” in Gaza Dec. 27 in an attempt to stop Iran-backed Hamas from its years-long campaign to kill and injure civilians in Israel, some have used the opportunity to spread misinformation about Israel’s actions, intentions and the overall situation in Gaza. Following are examples of fabrications – refuted by factual accounts provided by international aid organizations, Arab leaders, and Palestinian journalists.

"While there is real suffering in Gaza, it is important to sort fact from fiction and understand that Hamas is responsible for this sad situation," said Jennifer Laszlo Mizrahi, founder and president of The Israel Project. "The important thing now is to defeat terror so that there can be a two-state solution and lasting peace. Both sides need a better future."

1) Fiction: There’s no food in Gaza and people are starving.
News reports, including one produced by TV station France 2 on Dec. 29, showed a Gaza resident in a food store saying:

“Apparently, there is nothing, as you can see. There are no natural products for the kids. There is no milk. There is nothing here.”[1]

Fact: Warehouses in Gaza are filled to capacity, according to international aid groups. In the same France 2 TV clip referenced above, upon closer inspection, shelves filled with food can be seen in the reflection of a refrigerated door in the store. To see clip: click on http://jt.france2.fr/20h; click on “Lundi 29” – below the small screen; to the right of the new screen, click “Vie dans la bande de Gaza” The World Food Program informed Israel that it would cease shipment of food to Gaza because the warehouses there are at full capacity, with enough food to last two weeks.[2]

During a one-day period alone – Dec. 31– Israel facilitated the transport of 29 truckloads of food, including 15 truckloads of flour, into Gaza.[3] And even as Hamas was firing rockets and mortars during Israel during the ceasefire, Israel facilitated the delivery of 2,500 tons (delivered on 93 trucks) of humanitarian aid, medical supplies and medication through the Kerem Shalom cargo terminal.[4]

Since the beginning of the operation, about 6,500 tons of aid have been transferred into Gaza at the request of the international organizations, the Palestinian Authority and various governments. Preparations are underway to facilitate further shipments.[5]

2) Fiction: Gaza has no medical and other aid supplies to help the injured.
Fact: During the first 5 days alone of Operation Cast Lead, Israel has facilitated the delivery of 6,500 tons of aid – 179 truckoads -- into Gaza at the request of international organizations, the Palestinian Authority and various governments. The deliveries include basic food commodities, medication, medical supplies and blood units. Another 106 truckloads of humanitarian aid are expected to arrive in Gaza on Jan. 31.[6] [7] The crossings to Gaza are open for the transfer of humanitarian aid from all international organizations, in full cooperation with the Israeli authorities and without restriction.[8] In a one-day period – Dec. 31 – Israel enabled the transport of 9 truckloads of medicine and medical supplies, along with 10 ambulances, into Gaza.[9]

3) Fiction: Israel is refusing to allow injured Gazans into Israeli and Egyptian hospitals for treatment.
Fact: Israel has allowed a number of Palestinians into Israel for medical treatment they couldn’t receive in Gaza. On Dec. 31, for example, 12 Palestinians accessed Israel for medical treatment in Israeli hospitals. Two of those evacuated were injured children; the remaining were chronically sick people, and their escorts, who were allowed into Israel for treatment not available in Gaza.[10]

Further, Hamas – in an effort to exploit the suffering of innocent civilians - has refused to allow injured Palestinians to leave Gaza to go to Egypt for treatment.[11] Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Abu al-Gheit said earlier this week that Hamas was not allowing wounded Palestinians to cross the border into Egypt for treatment: “We are waiting for the wounded Palestinians to cross. They are not being allowed to cross.” Asked who was to blame, he referred to Gaza by saying, “Ask the party in control on the ground in Gaza.”[12]

4) Fiction: Israel is purposely targeting civilians.
Fact: While Israel goes out of its way to minimize civilian casualties, Hamas actually places civilians in harm’s way and uses them as shields. Because Hamas is known to use civilian residences to hide their weapons, on Dec. 27, the Israeli military – before launching an attack on such storehouses - called thousands of civilians in Gaza on their cell phones and left Arabic-language messages urging them to leave homes being used for weapons storage.[13]

On Dec. 30, a reformist Iranian newspaper published a statement by a student organization that criticized Hamas for risking civilian lives, including children, by hiding its forces in nurseries and hospitals. The Iranian Culture Ministry shut down the newspaper after it printed the statements.[14]

Israel has publicly stated time and again that it regrets the loss of any civilian life and considers each one a tragedy. However, both Iran-backed Hamas and Iran-backed Hezbollah have a history of faking deaths and funerals. For example, in Spring 2002, Palestinians were filmed as they attempted to stage a fake funeral as part of a gross exaggeration of the number of people killed in Jenin. The film shows Palestinians wrapping, then carrying a ‘corpse’ on a funeral pier; the ‘corpse’ falls off several times and gets back on – including in front of a large and surprised crowd.[15] Click here for video of faked funeral. Although some reports say a quarter of the deaths during “Operation Cast Lead” have been civilians, Palestinian terrorists’ history of deceptions and false claims require reporters to work to verify such information.

During Israel’s defensive war against Hezbollah two years ago, the phenomenon was so common that it became known as “Hezbollywood.”[16] One of the best-known instances was when a man purporting to be a rescue worker at the site of a bombed village appeared in various photos in the international media, repeatedly displaying the same child’s dead body at different times – and in different poses – throughout the day. The man, identified as Salam Daher, wore a green helmet in all of the photos, earning himself the nickname “green helmet guy.” Daher was also found to have directed a camera shooting the scene.[17]

For experts available to comment on these and similar deceptions, please contact:
Richard Landes: e-mail: rlandes@bu.edu
Philippe Karsenty: e-mail: pk@M-R.fr

5) Fiction: Israel has cut off electricity to Gaza.
Fact: In the past, Hamas officials have committed deceptions such as pulling dark curtains in mid-day while holding a meeting to make it look as though they were being forced to work by candlelight – a sham exposed by journalists who showed that it was actually daylight outside at the time.[18] The ruse was carried out with the complicity of some Arab satellite TV stations. More recent such deceptions have come to light as recently as November 2008, when Palestinian Authority officials said Hamas staged new blackouts to try to get sympathy from the international community and provoke civilian violence against the Palestinian Authority and Israel.[19] Further, terrorists in Gaza have fired rockets at – and hit - the power station in the Israeli city of Ashkelon that provides Gaza the majority of its electricity.[20] The terrorists also have fired on Israeli workers at a depot that provides fuel to Gaza and a suicide bomber destroyed lines providing electricity from Israel into Gaza. [21]

"There's no shortage of fuel in the Gaza Strip and the Electricity Company is continuing to function normally," a PA official said in November. "Our people in the Gaza Strip have told us that the blackouts are all staged as part of the Hamas propaganda…There's enough fuel in the Gaza Strip,” he said. "Even when Israel reduces the fuel supplies, Hamas continues to smuggle tens of thousands of liters through the underground tunnels."[22]

6) Fiction: Palestinian journalists are unbiased and show what’s ‘really’ happening in Gaza.

Fact: Some Palestinian journalists are manipulating and exploiting unintended victims of the Israeli strikes. Said one Palestinian journalist, members of the Palestinian media are ‘directing’ civilians to cry and telling them what to say in interviews: "A mother of one of the martyrs stood by the door of the intensive care unit while crying... relatives and those around her were telling her what she should say to the television cameras: 'Say your son [before he died] prayed and went out.' Another tells her: 'Curse the Arab leaders'... The journalists [in the hospitals] are going overboard in their insensitivity and taking advantage of the [difficult] moments, with the explanation that they are showing this to the world. One cameraman told a mourning mother: 'Hit your face, cry, do some action.'"[23]

http://www.theisraelproject.or.....ct=6479307
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NDP's deputy leader denies Israel's right to exist

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