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theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:47 am    Post subject: Is A Secular World A Sane World Reply with quote

Pat Condell makes excellent points as to why Islam is a danger to the West. And I know many of the readers here, won't like them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXzladhscMQ
Bleatmop





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Pat's videos too. Good to see you again. Where have you been hiding?
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't gone anywhere. I have just laid low on a few forums. I haven't even posted on Raving Atheists in a long time either.
Craig
Site Admin




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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

False presumption. He is assuming that we want to give broad religious freedom - I don't. I want Canada to be a Christian country. It is my believe that the purpose of a country is for people of shared values to reside in peace. That means that there should be atheist countries, Islamic countries, and Christian countries. I want Canada to be a Christian country.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
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votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may want a theocracy. I don't. And a Christian country would be a theocracy, no different than what Saudi Arabia is by definition.
It really doesn't matter though. More and more Canadians are becoming atheist or agnostic every day as the internet is killing Christianity.
And when you say you want a Christian nation, do you mean Catholic nation? Protestant nation? Jehovah Witness nation? Mormon nation?

Last survey, 23% of Canadians are atheist:
http://baconeatingatheistjew.b.....eists.html

I still don't know what a Christian nation is though? Does that mean shops are closed on Sunday?
Luke





Joined: 27 Jan 2007
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Location: Saskatoon, Sk.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think Canada needs to be a Christian country per se, but I think that shared values are very important, and I think that the Judeo-Christian value system is the best in the in the world.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How was the Mayan value system or ancient Greek value system different than the Judeo Christian value system? You and I both want the social contract to be respected. If you want to call the social contract Judeo-Christian values, that is your prerogative.
But I'll say that secular values are more or less Christian values which are more or less Western values.
The 10 Commandments were simply common sense written down by man to control man...but everyone knew what was wrong and right before they were written, or at least the majority of humans innately knew most of the Commandments a long time before they made headlines....even the stuff about God, because our ancient ancestors did believe in the supernatural and feared consequences for doing nasty things, again long before biblical days. Heck, our ancient ancestors couldn't explain lightning, so they had to make up all sorts of excuses in order to stay sane and make it to procreation.
Luke





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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
How was the Mayan value system or ancient Greek value system different than the Judeo Christian value system? You and I both want the social contract to be respected. If you want to call the social contract Judeo-Christian values, that is your prerogative.
But I'll say that secular values are more or less Christian values which are more or less Western values.
The 10 Commandments were simply common sense written down by man to control man...but everyone knew what was wrong and right before they were written, or at least the majority of humans innately knew most of the Commandments a long time before they made headlines....even the stuff about God, because our ancient ancestors did believe in the supernatural and feared consequences for doing nasty things, again long before biblical days. Heck, our ancient ancestors couldn't explain lightning, so they had to make up all sorts of excuses in order to stay sane and make it to procreation.


What exactly are you objecting to? Or, are you agreeing with me? I'm not sure.
joshuabrown





Joined: 31 Dec 1969
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While he makes some decent points about needing to quit bowing to Islam, he goes too far when he starts talking about our spirits and how religion is nothing more than a scam. Religion is engrained into human life, and an atheists viewpoint is just another one of these religions and to trash talk and generalize all Christians as phonies is uncalled for. Sure, call sharia law for what it is, but to say my spirit is clean and not in need of a savior while trash talking all religious leadership is going too far.

If he truly wishes religion to be outside the public realm he should rethink his double standards. He can't be spewing out his atheistic secularism and expect someone who has devoted their life to God to keep his mouth shut unless he does the same.

Quote:
But I'll say that secular values are more or less Christian values which are more or less Western values.


Well yes, because secular values came out of the West which has been formed by Christianity. The problem is that secular values are void of their being a God and have been perverted to the point of trying to kill off the Christian God by any means possible- even if that is to glorify Islam. Condell's problem is that he has a strong atheist bias and that is not going to help his cause of rooting out Islam in a Western world that is occupied with destroying Christianity that is still evidently alive. He wishes to destroy Islam and Christianity both by insulting both and calling upon those who then are stupid enough to have faith to crawl scared into caves to practise their religion.
Riley W





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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want Canada to be a 'Christian' country. Whose definition of "Christian"? My United Church of Canada style of Christianity or your Baptist Church Evangelicalism style of Christianity?

I do support a shared set of common values...judeo-christian philosophy that transcends one particular religion.

We should be a country for all people, not just for Christians.
Bleatmop





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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riley W wrote:
I don't want Canada to be a 'Christian' country. Whose definition of "Christian"? My United Church of Canada style of Christianity or your Baptist Church Evangelicalism style of Christianity?

I do support a shared set of common values...judeo-christian philosophy that transcends one particular religion.

We should be a country for all people, not just for Christians.


That sounds like a secular country to me.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luke wrote:


What exactly are you objecting to? Or, are you agreeing with me? I'm not sure.

I guess I'm objecting to the term Judeo-Christian values. I'm objecting to the idea that what we see as making the West great to have been conditional on the laws of Christianity or Judaism. The roots of what makes Western values better than others goes back long before the bibles and has been witnessed in cultures that had no knowledge of the NT or OT.
For example, I can argue that the Mayan culture, the ancient Buddhist culture, the ancient Hindu culture, the ancient Greek culture, etc. all had what many Christians here would say had Judeo Christian values.
If anyone wants to disagree with my statement, I'd like them to give concrete examples of Judeo-Christian values.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riley W wrote:
I don't want Canada to be a 'Christian' country. Whose definition of "Christian"? My United Church of Canada style of Christianity or your Baptist Church Evangelicalism style of Christianity?

I do support a shared set of common values...judeo-christian philosophy that transcends one particular religion.

We should be a country for all people, not just for Christians.

I agree 100%, and Condell's point though is that by allowing certain religions to push their own BELIEFs into our laws or into the public square, it opens the door for Islam to do the same.
And I think that most of us agree that we don't want Islam to influence our laws in any way shape or form.
The best way to stop this is to have complete separation of church and state and let anyone follow their faiths at home or at their place of worship.
The government should only concern itself with real facts, not faith. No matter how much people believe their own particular faith is fact.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

joshuabrown wrote:


1. If he truly wishes religion to be outside the public realm he should rethink his double standards. He can't be spewing out his atheistic secularism and expect someone who has devoted their life to God to keep his mouth shut unless he does the same.


2.Well yes, because secular values came out of the West which has been formed by Christianity. The problem is that secular values are void of their being a God and have been perverted to the point of trying to kill off the Christian God by any means possible- even if that is to glorify Islam. Condell's problem is that he has a strong atheist bias and that is not going to help his cause of rooting out Islam in a Western world that is occupied with destroying Christianity that is still evidently alive. He wishes to destroy Islam and Christianity both by insulting both and calling upon those who then are stupid enough to have faith to crawl scared into caves to practise their religion.

1. As soon as we see total separation of church and state, you will see most atheist shut up. But that isn't going to happen soon. Look at Ontario still having the Lord's Prayer in government. It is beyond ridiculous.
And I don't think you were listening. Secularism does not equal atheism. It means separation of church and state. Everyone has the right to believe whatever they want, and can worship as much as they want at church or at home.

2. No, Christianity usurped the social contract which is the basis of what you call Judeo-Christian values.
Secular values are common values that give everyone equal rights, therefore they can't incorporate a certain God.
Nobody is trying to destroy Christianity. We just want it outside of the governments.
But like I said, Christianity is destroying itself in many instances by continuing to push agendas on the public. The louder the Christians are, the more their house of cards will fall, and again, the internet has a lot to do with it.
For example, the Christians who need to believe that evolution is false and/or that the earth is young, are becoming clowns on the internet. As facts are thrown back at them, the youngsters who have been indoctrinated lies about young earth creation are smart enough to see the overwhelming evidence against that certain belief, and it causes many to question everything there is about Christianity all the way to the high probability that Jesus most likely didn't even exist as a historical figure.
Luke





Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 54
Reputation: 24.6Reputation: 24.6
Location: Saskatoon, Sk.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
Luke wrote:


What exactly are you objecting to? Or, are you agreeing with me? I'm not sure.

I guess I'm objecting to the term Judeo-Christian values. I'm objecting to the idea that what we see as making the West great to have been conditional on the laws of Christianity or Judaism. The roots of what makes Western values better than others goes back long before the bibles and has been witnessed in cultures that had no knowledge of the NT or OT.
For example, I can argue that the Mayan culture, the ancient Buddhist culture, the ancient Hindu culture, the ancient Greek culture, etc. all had what many Christians here would say had Judeo Christian values.
If anyone wants to disagree with my statement, I'd like them to give concrete examples of Judeo-Christian values.


If the only objection is to the term, and not the value system itself, then the argument is pretty superficial. I don't know anything about ancient cultures, or what their values were. If they were similar to modern Christian values then thats great. I have no problem with that.

I think you and I essentially agree. I was raised Catholic, and I went to church regularly until I was about 19 or 20, but since then I've only gone sporadically. I do believe in God, and I do believe that there is an objective moral standard that comes from him. Whether someone believes that the Ten Commandments were revealed to Moses by GOD, or whether you think the Ten Commandments were just common sense principles that existed before the Christian faith, that an average Joe in ancient times decided to transcribe for everyone, is completely up to the individual.

What matters to me is whether you believe in the values contained in the Ten Commandments, not whether you believe they came from GOD, or Man. Obviously I think they carry a bit more meaning if they come from GOD, but I'm not looking to convince anyone of that thesis. I'm happy to let people come to their own conclusions about religion, and the existence of GOD.
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