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Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
The World's headlines??? They are? What I am seeing on the electronic media is the world having another snicker at Trudeau's expense.

No you aren't. LOL!

Look, facts are one thing, your opinion is another. Kinda like the GDP malarkey you posted earlier.

They are even ridiculing his droopy eyebrow.

Quote:
And for that, Trudeau is showing us he doesn't understand how it works. He seems to think that Trump is being rude.

Good lord man....even the white house players are saying its Trump who doesnt know.
Case in point...Trump readily admitted he didnt know if there was a surplus or deficit.

"I made it up"

Bugs, deny all you want but this Govt is doing well with the NAFTA file. They get a deal on paper and the orange barnacle changes his mind.

Trump doesnt know that dairy is not subsidized here, like s/w lumber , like it is in the US. Wisconsin farmers will confirm that (and have)
The US sends 5x's the dairy into Canada than we send there.

Trump isnt aware of the fact that US dairy is tariff free....for the first 10% of imports.The US has tariffs on ALL of our dairy sent in.

Yea....we both know who doesnt get it , yet only one of us is non partisan enough to admit it.
Quote:

NAFTA is probably over, in favour of another kind of deal.

NAFTA is alive and well and will be sorted out. The US cannot afford for it not to be.
Quote:
All I am saying is we should face up to the "loss" of supply management, and try to dissociate ourselves from the countries that are genuinely 'cheating' and to whom the US is exporting jobs.

Not at all on the first point. Keep 'em going !

ON the second part, that would mean we disassociate ourselves from the US. The lumber dispute is one case, the US does cheat and ignore rulings against them all the time.
HOwever, I am sure you meant other countries that cheat and I agree with you. The only problem is determining what cheating is, since to some degree everyone does it.

Quote:

He thinks the plaudits of EU leaders, for example, will solve the problem. He just doesn't understand how trade law works.


Woah woah woah....didnt you just say they were all laughing at Trudeau?

Why yes you did, but as can be seen thats not true at all , and you KNOW the EU, Japan, France Germany and any other stable country thinks this is all Trumps fault for his ignorance and bullshitting.
Quote:

And, of course, that there is no other road to redemption for our dim-witted PM.
Frankly if you had even one small iota of non partisanship you would be able to see that this is particularly false and reeks of hypocrisy.

But hey....you do you.
Bugs





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votes: 8

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know that I am not going to persuade TC of anything, so I don't try.

However, the world's headlines aren't the test, are they?

I have already listed my reasons for thinking our dim-bulb PM has the very opposite of political instincts. He had actually scheduled a day of discussion on gender and climate issues (once again), as if anyone could expect Trump to waste time on that when he has important work to do -- like persuading Kim to lay down his nukes.

It's because -- believe it or not -- this is where he thinks he shines. Did he think he was going to lead some kind of 'intervention', belling the Trump cat for the benefit of the EU? I think so. And then they would repay him by making him Secretary-General?

But this is about trade deals. Trump handled the situation brilliantly. He insulted Trudeau, and that insult -- weak, dishonest -- will stick, fundamentally because he is weak and dishonest. Trump leaves Canada and plays to his American audience with panache.

People should read The Art of the Deal to realize that Trump has put Trudeau on his back foot, and left him looking a weak fool at the end when it whined about Trump leaving without endorsing their final statement. He hasn't even disputed the idea of "fairness" in these deals. Supply management was negotiated into the NAFTA -- it isn't unfair. That's propaganda, and Trudeau was so busy acting outraged -- not very convincingly -- that he misused his TV time.

As for the "Orange barnacle" (insults courtesy Rosie O"Donnell) upsetting the talks, you ought to know how these things go -- they start with what they agree on, and settle as much as they can. None of us know where the talks really are, and TC shouldn't pretend. But it takes heads of state to make the big concessions -- and Trump has seen no concessions.

TC reveals his ignorance of the softwood lumber issue. The NAFTA agrees that things like lumber should be priced at the replacement value. BC just harvests trees, they don't even know at this point whether the land they are harvesting is Native of a part of Canada. In Nova Scotia. where the forests are privately owned, there was no countervail. BC just leases out the trees for harvesting.

In any case, the gentle reader can watch and see who will turn out to be closer to the right path. As it stands now, if Trudeau imposes those tariffs, Trump will impose more, and we will see who hurts the worst.
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
I know that I am not going to persuade TC of anything, so I don't try.

Well duh...when you spout shit why would you think anyone would change their mind? Hell you are doing it again here.

But do keep trying.
Quote:

However, the world's headlines aren't the test, are they?

Well thank you for the backhand agreement on the worlds headlines. I guess you went and looked them up and said "D'oh!"

No they are not a test, I give you that. But they are a measuring stick for what those countries think.

Quote:
I have already listed my reasons for thinking our dim-bulb PM has the very opposite of political instincts.

IN this case youd be dead wrong.
It is Trudeau who knows the file, far better than trump. Trudeau is sticking to the same facts and argument, publically and privately. So what he said is consistent all along.
Thats a sign of a good negotiating team .

Quote:
when he has important work to do -- like persuading Kim to lay down his nukes.

You think Kim will ?

Um ...ok. Not much support in Washington for that sentiment but you can be an alsand unto yourself if you wish.

Quote:

People should read The Art of the Deal to realize that Trump has put Trudeau on his back foot, and left him looking a weak fool at the end when it whined about Trump leaving without endorsing their final statement. He hasn't even disputed the idea of "fairness" in these deals. Supply management was negotiated into the NAFTA -- it isn't unfair. That's propaganda, and Trudeau was so busy acting outraged -- not very convincingly -- that he misused his TV time.

Wholly delusional and frankly insulting in its simplistic stupidity.

You best never take up negotiating a damn thing. You are so far off base here its laughable


Quote:

TC reveals his ignorance of the softwood lumber issue.

Damn I love when you do this. Stand erect and proclaim something such as the above and then...trip and fall and make yourself look incredibly ignorant.
Quote:

The NAFTA agrees that things like lumber should be priced at the replacement value.

LOL ! No it doesnt.

NAFTA has NEVER....let me repeat...NEVER included softwood lumber.

Sorry...what were you saying about ignorance?

"Free trade in softwood lumber has never been part of any continental trade pact and the Canadian government has been wary of injecting it into this current negotiation, fearful that adding a contentious issue would make the already complex talks that much more difficult."
https://globalnews.ca/news/3745602/softwood-lumber-nafta-add/

BTW...more ignorance here...
Quote:
In Nova Scotia. where the forests are privately owned,

Only 53% private, 47% Prov/Fed .

So , for the third time today I see you just made things up. New name bugstRump !

Sounds about right.
Bugs





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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose I could go point-by-point,' but why bother with this quality of response.

The point is The Art of the Deal. Trudeau hoped to be an 'intervention' with Trump with all this "nobody-wins-a-trade-war' stuff. But that's wrong. Trump knows what the other countries refuse to admit ... and which TC can't acknowledge ... which is that Canada, at least, has no choice but to negotiate a new deal because the other choice is unthinkable.

So, Trudeau tried to stage his foolish "intervention" and Trump saw it coming and told them to warm up the helicopter ... Trudeau, who'd been smarmy to Trump during the conference, bad-mouthed him as soon as his plane had left the tarmac. So Trump alerted his Twitter followers to what we've known for some time -- that Trudeau is an empty suit. Well, weak and dishonest ... same thing. He's not someone who you can make a deal with.

Now Trump has Trudeau, who needs a deal, faced with the problem of either begging for a settlement, and giving up more than he might have otherwise, or going ahead with his tariffs, dialling up a retaliation from Trump. It's the same position Kim was in after Trump cancelled the Singapore Summit.

That's how I see the practical situation. Trump is a big winner, even as those left around a table telling each other lies about what they want to do about climate change ... and gender relations. If Trudeau imposes those retaliatory tariffs, watch out!

We'll see who's right.
Bugs





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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With regard to TC's claims about softwood lumber ...

Quote:
... the U.S. Department of
Commerce (USDOC) estimated a single countrywide
subsidy rate of 19.34% for the timber
the Canadian lumber companies harvest at a
reduced fee from the government-owned forest
land (USDOC 2002). Meanwhile, the U.S.
International Trade Commission (USITC)
also determined that Canadian companies sell
their lumber in the United States at below cost
of production and estimated that such dumping
reduces U.S. lumber prices by 12.58%.
Despite Canada’s objection that its forest
programs are not countervailable, the United
States imposed 18.8% CVD and 8.4% antidumping
tariff, adding to a total of 27.2%
import tariff on lumber imports. These CVD
and tariffs are lower than their respective
preliminary determinations. In spite of several
attempts to amicably solve this trade litigation
through negotiations, no durable solution was
reached, and both countries turned to WTO
and NAFTA panels to resolve the dispute.
Canada filed three petitions challenging the
legitimacy of the U.S. countervailing duties
(Petition I), antidumping duties (Petition II),
and the U.S. claim that lumber imports from
Canada injure the U.S. lumber industry
(Petition III). The United States requested
that the WTO and NAFTA panels reject all
Canadian arguments and find that U.S.
concerns and actions are legitimate.
In investigating Petition I, the WTO’s
subsidy determination panel followed the rule
that a subsidy exists if there is a financial
contribution that confers a benefit. On this
basis, the WTO panel found that Canadian
stumpage programs are financial contributions
and adequate cause exists for the United States
to countervail.
http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bi.....01-171.pdf The cited bit is on page 173.
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And ?

Surely one is not suggesting NAFTA includes lumber. Oh my heaven, hope not. That'd be stupid.

Look the US has lost this fight, but stubbornly refuses to abide.

From my understanding , they cannot (US) say we subsidize since under US law we have to target a specific industry for that lumber, and we dont.

We fell it , buck it and produce boards and sell it. They use it for everything.

And lest we forget, the US home mfg'ers are not happy, nor are homeowners who have seen the price of lumber rise greatly .

But thats another day and another story.
Bugs





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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would make sense IF (big if) American trade laws were made by a majority vote of the G-7.

But they aren't.

You did read the part about Canada losing its appeals? The WTO ruled that Canada (actually most of the provincial governments) subsidizes lumber production because the wood is valued as harvested from nature, rather than it's replacement value. That would mean you're wrong about the WTO ruling.

Not that it matters.
Bugs





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votes: 8

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rarely do events bear me out so quickly ...

Quote:
Trump says Trudeau ‘learned’ from mistake of criticizing him, and it will cost Canada ‘a lot of money’
SINGAPORE
THE CANADIAN PRESS
PUBLISHED JUNE 12, 2018

U.S. President Donald Trump says Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s assertion that Canada “will not be pushed around” will end up costing Canadians “a lot of money.”

Trump gave a wide-ranging news conference in Singapore on Tuesday following his landmark summit with North Korean leader Kim Jong-un, in which the two leaders spoke for several hours.

Among the many topics the President addressed with reporters afterward was his recent Twitter campaign against Trudeau, whom he has called “dishonest” and “weak.”

Those comments came after Trudeau’s closing news conference at the G7 summit in Quebec on Saturday, when the prime minister said he had pushed back against the Trump administration’s tariffs on steel and aluminum.

Trump says he watched that news conference on his way to Singapore, and was upset because he thought he and Trudeau had had a positive meeting in Charlevoix.

Trump says Trudeau “probably didn’t know that Air Force One has about 20 televisions.

“I see the television and he’s giving a news conference about how he ‘will not be pushed around’ by the United States. And I say, ’Push him around? We just shook hands!“’ Trump said Tuesday.

“We finished the (G7) meeting and really everybody was happy.”

Trump has consistently railed against what he claims are unfair trade practices by some of America’s biggest trade partners, including Canada. [....]
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-trump-says-trudeau-has-learned-from-mistake-of-criticizing-him-and/


Justin Trudeau just stepped in the biggest cow-pie in the pasture. He may not be the worst PM ever, but he's got to be the dumbest ... What an incredible failure!

Now, Canada is in danger of becoming the whipping boy, the one whose public humiliation is used to coerce all the other recalcitrant parties to trade deals. Trudeau has made it so that the least offending major trade partner is the example for the rest of the world, so they see what happens when you are guided by a fool.
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahem...why do you deny the obvious if you have 2 minutes to look it up?
Quote:

WTO softwood ruling favours Canada
CBC News · Posted: May 27, 2003 10:18 PM ET | Last Updated: May 27, 2003
The World Trade Organization has ruled in favour of Canada in its softwood lumber dispute with the United States.

The preliminary ruling, which is not binding, was released to the federal government Tuesday.

"Yet again, it appears that the U.S. is being told that its attempts to prove our softwood industry is subsidized are flawed," International Trade Minister Pierre Pettigrew said in a news release.


https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/cases_e/1pagesum_e/ds257sum_e.pdf

Quote:
OTTAWA – “There were court challenges in these other disputes. We have won them all,” Natural Resources Minister Jim Carr said on April 25.

Carr has been offering reassuring words as the country prepares to defend its softwood lumber industry yet again from duties imposed by the United States.

The latest round marks the fifth time in about 30 years that Canada will engage in a softwood dispute with its biggest trading partner.
“Our government disagrees strongly with this decision,” he said. “It is unfounded, and we will vigorously fight for the interests of the Canadian softwood lumber industry, its workers, and their communities.”

Carr also insisted that Canada has won every court challenge of the past.

WHAT THE EXPERTS SAY

Trade experts say while the history of the softwood-lumber wars is long and complicated, they agree that Canada has repeatedly come out on top since the 1980s.

Some note, however, that the victories do not mean Canada came through completely unscathed.

Naomi Christensen, a senior policy analyst at the Canada West Foundation think tank, said that over the years Canada has had considerable success in appealing U.S. actions in front of NAFTA and WTO panels.

“What may actually be more accurate is to say the U.S. has never won,” said Christensen, who noted, for example, that panels have called on the U.S. to lower or lift its duties on Canadian lumber a number of times.

“It’s a little more complex than just a court case because it’s (presented) to trade panels, and so the rulings are typically not just ‘yes-Canada, no-U.S.'”

She noted that less than a decade ago, while the most-recent softwood lumber agreement was in place, the U.S. found some success after filing disputes with the London Court of International Arbitration over how Canada was applying the deal.

Christensen said the court ruled that some provinces were applying the agreement correctly and a couple were not. However, she noted that these rulings came while an agreement was in place.

THE VERDICT

Overall, experts say Canada has generally prevailed through four rounds of the softwood lumber dispute with the U.S., even if the Americans saw some less significant success along the way.

For that reason, Carr’s statement rates “a little” baloney.
https://globalnews.ca/news/3460660/canada-softwood-lumber-battles/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93United_States_softwood_lumber_dispute

Quote:
The World Trade Organization handed Canada a legal victory on softwood lumber yesterday that could help bolster the forestry industry's opposition to a proposed softwood deal with the United States.

The WTO's appellate body said the controversial U.S. practice for calculating anti-dumping duties known as "zeroing" doesn't conform to international free-trade rules. In April, a WTO panel rejected a challenge brought by Canada against the U.S. use of zeroing.

The anti-dumping duties have been applied to billions of dollars of Canadian softwood exported to the U.S. every year, part of a long-standing dispute between the two countries over the how the market should operate. The two neighbours initialled an agreement on July 1 that could, at least temporarily, end the trade battle.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/canada-wins-wto-softwood-ruling/article18170960/

Hope thats enough.
Bugs





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votes: 8

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And yet ...
Quote:
the WTO panel found that Canadian stumpage programs are financial contributions and adequate cause exists for the United States to countervail.


Does that sound like a victory? Sometimes politicians lie. Unbelievable as that may be. You didn't check which suit that the ruled on -- there were likely more than one. What we know is that Stephen Harper negotiated a deal in 2003, and it wasn't a ruling from the WTO that decided it.

I don't know why TC thinks it's so important that softwood lumber wasn't covered by NAFTA. You could say that about supply management as well. The problem is, NAFTA does not exempt Canadians from US trade law. The issue was dumping. The value of the asset is calculated on its replacement value. So the US won't buy our lumber unless their consumers pay more for it. That should be an easy problem to address. We do a higher degree of processing here, in Canada.

The problem is that BC uses the forestry industry to 'develop' the province and to provide work for rural populations.

The thing that TC misses is that this has entered the theatrical realm of democratic politics. Trump has dealt Trudeau's image a body blow. The Stunned One got a lesson he probably still hasn't absorbed, but now everybody knows ... Justin has been branded as weak & dishonest ... He makes it worse by whining about it, pleading to be understood. He be better to admit it's true than to act it out before our eyes.

This one tweet (at least) negates The Rolling Stone cover, for instance. Years from now there will a question in Trivial Persuit, asking what Trump called Justin Trudeau. Future biographers will discuss the "weak & dishonest" question.

Has anyone one here ever read a Kafka novel called The Castle? That's what's going to be going on here if we aren't careful, and the problem is all our destinies are wrapped up in that twirp's vainglorious moves. What is Trudeau's bargaining position right now? Is he in a position to get a quick deal? Can he do anything else?

That's now the key to The Stunned One's problem -- he has to get a quick deal.

The worst thing he could do is bring on a true trade war by countervailing the US tariffs. To win -- if that is even a possibility -- we would have to be willing to endure pain, because -- if only to show Germany and other watchers -- our tariffs will be more than matched with more from the American side. And the tougher that the Stunned One tries to be, the more we'll suffer.

And we aren't up for that. That path leads to an election loss.

So, if he needs a deal, he is going to have to make a concession right off the top. I think you might as well say, we've already lost supply-management. (If "loss" is the right word.) He has to separate his deal from Mexico and the other G-7 members. And he may not get a "gain" for Canada that he might have gotten, had he the wit to understand that Trump, too, needs a quick success on "the trade file."

What we should be seeing that supply-management is small potatoes in the big picture. The problem is our dairy people have lost the ability to compete. It will take them some time to recover that. But will be phased in, and they will have their "quota" bought back. They will be OK, and we'll have cheaper food.

I don't care what the "negotiators" say. I don't believe the story of an 'almost' deal anyway. Heads of state will make the big concessions and set the pattern. The 'negotiators' argue about the wording after that. If the Stunned One thought a deal was in hand, he was doubly stupid to put it in jeopardy -- but he didn't. It's a concoction designed to make Trump look disorganized and intemperate.

That's how I see it. TC sees something else, although it isn't clear what it is, except Justin is doing it right. The good part is that time will tell who's right.
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Bugs"]And yet ...
Quote:
the WTO panel found that Canadian stumpage programs are financial contributions and adequate cause exists for the United States to countervail.

...adequate cause exists....do you know what that means?
To quote the Princess Bride....'You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means'

Anyhow..
Quote:

Does that sound like a victory? Sometimes politicians lie. Unbelievable as that may be. You didn't check which suit that the ruled on -- there were likely more than one. What we know is that Stephen Harper negotiated a deal in 2003, and it wasn't a ruling from the WTO that decided it.

I know you didnt read any of the links with this reply.
I believe it was 4 rulings and 4 victories.
If I win....it doesnt sound like a victory ...it IS a victory.
Quote:

I don't know why TC thinks it's so important that softwood lumber wasn't covered by NAFTA. You could say that about supply management as well.

LOL !
See, you dont understand and miss the point entirely, once again.

The point was you thought it did. That means you didnt have any grasp of the issue and I needed to point that out.
Quote:

The problem is, NAFTA does not exempt Canadians from US trade law. The issue was dumping.

...Or so the Yanks said. But ya know...they, and you , were wrong.

Funny...you never touch on the US subsidies of lumber? Would that be harmful to your , what is apparently juvenile, argument ?

Quote:

The problem is that BC uses the forestry industry to 'develop' the province and to provide work for rural populations.

hold the presses.... this nugget is soooo deep.....

I wonder what Alberta does. I think there might be some black gold in the ground around there. But ...I dunno man !
Quote:

Trump has dealt Trudeau's image a body blow.

Lets see .....
Unanimous consensus across ALL party lines.
Premier elect backing our esteemed PM.
GOP Senator(s) apologizing for the boorishness of tRump.
Most newspaper editors crowing how tRump was wrong. (both countries)
Overwhelming 80%+ agreement of PM's actions. (and he's kept quiet too)
tRumps own lapdogs apologizing for their remarks.
France Germany England all backing our PM.

As body blow goes it would be on par to a fly hitting an elephant.

No one does partisan like you do. Facts be damned huh?
LOL!

Quote:
... Justin has been branded as weak & dishonest ... He makes it worse by whining about it, pleading to be understood. He be better to admit it's true than to act it out before our eyes.

WOW !

How out of touch can one person be?

Quote:
Future biographers will discuss the "weak & dishonest" question.

And they will reply that tRump made himself look weak and boorish by his silly antics , leaving early , showing up late...



Quote:

And we aren't up for that. That path leads to an election loss.

You do realize the growing sentiment that this trump fellow is handing Trudeau another victory if this continues on the same path ?


Quote:

I don't care what the "negotiators" say.

No surprise there. This truism doesnt fit your fucked up ideas, that pretty much no one here there or anywhere believes.

Just you.
And rebel....LOL! Bastion of hard hitting news (and suffering so bad) that is !

And how do I know you are in the dark on this...or just wilfull blindness or ignorance?
Keep reading.
Quote:
Heads of state will make the big concessions and set the pattern. The 'negotiators' argue about the wording after that.

Yup....youve never negotiated a thing in your life.

BTW, that not how they work at all. You have it bass ackwards


Quote:

That's how I see it.

We know that, its just that we also know you (A) dont read a damn thing about this (B) dont know about negotiations and (C) are too partisan to admit that our PM is doing the right thing.
Hell...gotta give your boy Ford credit. Hes backing the PM on this.

Please go get an education on this.

Time to stop making a mockery of your education.
Bugs





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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
... the most recent conflict boiled over in May 2002, when the United States imposed duties of 27 per cent on Canadian softwood lumber, arguing that Canada unfairly subsidized producers of spruce, pine and fir lumber.

An agreement in principle to end the dispute was reached in December 2003, but it collapsed two days later. The issue went before North American Free Trade Agreement panels and the World Trade Organization several times. Rulings have usually gone Canada's way.

Canada's protracted dispute with the U.S. over softwood lumber finally ended in April 2006 with an agreement that would require the U.S. to return about 80 per cent of the more than $5 billion in duties it had collected on lumber imports. The deal was signed in July 2006, but lumber industry groups in three provinces and the B.C. government said they would not support the final draft agreement. However, after the federal government made some adjustments, provincial governments agreed to support the deal. B.C. came on board first, with Ontario and Quebec following suit.
http://www.cbc.ca/news2/backgr.....od_lumber/


To be clear, the issue was DUMPING. As defined in trade law, "dumping" is selling something into an American market at less than its replacement cost. The BC government sells trees off of public land at far below 'replacement cost', and like it or not, it is a violation of American trade law, which NAFTA never exempted any nation from.

TC is just playing the fool with his comments. (He doesn't have to "play" very hard.) Yes, I do know what "adequate cause" means, in plain English. Does it have some other mystical meaning?

If TC has an issue with my analysis, he's should state it plainly, instead of this bit of sass he gives us. I suppose he finds Justin's approach as indefensible as I do, so he does this juvenile crap.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

To be clear, the issue was DUMPING. As defined in trade law, "dumping" is selling something into an American market at less than its replacement cost. The BC government sells trees off of public land at far below 'replacement cost', and like it or not, it is a violation of American trade law, which NAFTA never exempted any nation from.

More ignorance. FFS Jr , go learn and come back when you graduate. For someone so prolific a poster and such tenacity, you are like a grade school kid here.

1) Canada has won against dumpi...oh hang on 'DUMPING' since under US trade law we never sold lumber to a specific industry. Ergo, not a contravention of trade law.
Go here: The Canadian government and lumber industry dispute this assertion, based on a number of factors, including that Canadian timber is provided to such a wide range of industries, and that lack of specificity makes it ineligible to be considered a subsidy under U.S. law. Under U.S. trade remedy law, a countervailable subsidy must be specific to a particular industry. This requirement precludes imposition of countervailing duties on government programs, such as roads, that are meant to benefit a broad array of interests.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93United_States_softwood_lumber_dispute
Then go here: http://www.international.gc.ca.....x?lang=eng

And then go here: The Canadian government defends its forest management system, challenging the subsidy claim itself, as well as the allegation that the lumber should be subject to a countervailing duty on those grounds.

Since the wood is used in a wide range of industries, it doesn’t qualify as a subsidy under US law, which stipulates that countervailable subsidies must be specific to a certain industry. According to Canada, the actions of the US are driven by protectionism, rather than unfair practices.


#2) Canada has stumpage fees. The Crown owns an opverwhelming % of the land and trees. They offer tenure of the land (usually about 20 yrs) and decide how many board feet, quality of trees, height of trees and come to a fee per tree.

3) In the US , land is privately owned (majority of the land for cutting that is) and as such the onwers want to make money. They charge more knowing full well that the market demands are more than the supply. Somebody comes along, amazingly w a lower price (How justly American can you get) and folks want to buy it. Provided it is not done to a ....to use your tactics here , SPECIFIC INDUSTRY then it is not considered dumping. WTO agress with that...4 times...or is it 5 ?
Quote:

TC is just playing the fool with his comments.

You keep trying that tactic, until you get taken out to the woodshed and embarassed by your complete ignorance and stupidity. I like having you come across as a blowhard having a hard time spelling cat even if spotted with the C and the T.
YOu couldnt back up any of this with anything.

If that makes me the fool....oi vey....it makes you ...?


Quote:

If TC has an issue with my analysis, he's should state it plainly,

You have no analysis, just ignorant pontificating of baseless info.

Like a said, go learn Jr, you are waaaaay out of your league.

THanks for the laugh tho !
Bugs





Joined: 16 Dec 2009
Posts: 5994
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is only a sidelight on the discussion, which is about the terrible blundering that the Stunned One is committing (in our name) on what the bloodless call "the trade file".

I brought up the softwood lumber dispute only as an example of something we could ask for in these negotiations. My main target is the clumsy ineptitude of this administration on trade, and how absolutely stupid they have been on a matter of vital national interest -- the auto pact.

It's the blundering and incompetence that I want to draw your attention to. TC prefers only one side of the story. All we really know is that these rulings didn't settle the case, and only delayed things until we entered a plan to restrict our own wood exports when required. (And, by the way, TC, it's dumping if the lumber sells below its replacement cost. How much does it cost to get a Douglas Fir to reach a size suitable for market?

The gentle reader can make up his own mind.

But perhaps TC can explain to us why the Chief Boob put a priority on wedging gender and climate issues into a trade deal? Because that isn't a sidelight. Why was that a good idea?

TC just skips over these "little things", as if they haven't had a major influence on where we are now. He doesn't discuss the wisdom of allying with Mexico against the USA. Why not? Because there isn't any?

Those are the questions I would like to see our troll respond to.

After pissing our opportunities away, the Stunned One now is stuck with a trade war or copping out on it. Weakness, followed by lies to account for his failure. Trump is right about goofy Justin. Another query for TC: pls explain how this is good for Canada>

That would really advance the discussion rather than taking it into the weeds.
Toronto Centre





Joined: 12 Feb 2011
Posts: 1210
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votes: 4
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
This is only a sidelight on the discussion, which is about the terrible blundering that the Stunned One is committing (in our name) on what the bloodless call "the trade file".

And by most accounts, overwhelmingly so, PM Trudeau has done well. He is sticking to his guns and its nice to see.
I get that you wish that not to be true, but, you know it is and a vast majority in media, Political circles, populous think so.

Trudeau has been quiet since tRump spouted inanities. Smart move.
Quote:

It's the blundering and incompetence that I want to draw your attention to.

Of which you have shown none. So ....where is the blundering? Any references to back you up? No? well...no surprise there.
Quote:
TC prefers only one side of the story. All we really know is that these rulings didn't settle the case, and only delayed things until we entered a plan to restrict our own wood exports when required.

And wholly false. Good job, but speaking in facts would be nice.
Quote:

The gentle reader can make up his own mind.

Only another idiot would agree.
Quote:

I brought up the softwood lumber dispute only as an example of something we could ask for in these negotiations. My main target is the clumsy ineptitude of this administration on trade, and how absolutely stupid they have been on a matter of vital national interest -- the auto pact.

Ignorance alert!

Dumb statement dude. The auto parts made in canada would be subject to a tariff going into the US after having been tariffed coming into Canada and then sent back as part of a bigger thing.

So, any hypothesis on why GM, Chrysler and Ford have been silent on this issue? You can think about that one for awhile.
Quote:

But perhaps TC can explain to us why the Chief Boob put a priority on wedging gender and climate issues into a trade deal? Why was that a good idea?

Because it is what we as a nation believe in.

Youve painted yourself as troglodyte, misogynistic buffon enough times to know your feelings on this.

Ask yourself this, has it slowed any of this down? Has tRump made any mention of this ? Has Mexico had an issue with any of that?

See, negotiating is a funny thing. I know you've never done a lick of it, but thats ok.

One puts lots of 'things'on the table to negotiate. Some things are in there as filler. When the other side wants concessions, you throw the filler under the bus and it creates a line item issue that one can look at and say , "ok, we take this off the table'
Quote:

Those are the questions I would like to see our troll respond to.

You're welcome, always glad to educate you . But really you should know before making a fool of yourself.
Quote:

After pissing our opportunities away, the Stunned One now is stuck with a trade war or copping out on it.

Lets see one item our negotiators have pissed away.

Just one please.
Quote:

Weakness, followed by lies to account for his failure. Trump is right about goofy Justin. Another query for TC: pls explain how this is good for Canada>

That would really advance the discussion rather than taking it into the weeds.


When you post from the weeds of ignorance , well.... you know.

You cannot deny that overwhelmingly the support is with our PM . I dont know why you go against every single pundit who , while many loathe the PM, are supporting him across the board.

The Statesman in all this is named............. PM Justin Trudeau .

The weak link, at least in the mental capacity is tRump. I really wish he was a dumb as Brasseau... and tRump could challenge PM to a boxing match.

Now that would be funny.



Oh...and by the way, ever been to Chapleau ? Guess what they do up there ? A lot....and also guess who I was employed by for a good spell.
So...yea...I might just have a bit of an understanding on lumber issues. NOt an expert though.
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