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Bugs





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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:36 pm    Post subject: Cutting government spending the right way Reply with quote

Time for a new thread on the new Ford leadership. I mean this to continue the discussion being had on Ontario pc Leadership , whats next ? We're no longer talking about the leadership contest.

This is a good article to start it with because it sums up both Cosmo's and TC's angles on Ford's campaign. Cosmo seems to be intent on showing the savings are possible, and TC wants to disqualify Ford as a liar right off the hop. And I keep saying that it's "the other choice" that explains (and condones) everything.

Quote:
Andrew Coyne: The right way to cut government spending? Focus on core responsibilities
To insist that government should continue to do everything it does now, only cheaper, is a fool’s errand: a recipe for substandard services and an aggrieved workforce.

Asked by a radio interviewer how he could cut billions from spending, as he has promised, without cutting a single job, as he has also promised, Doug Ford answered: “efficiencies.” Asked again, he answered: “you haven’t done it — I’ve done it.” Asked a third time, he offered: “sharing synergies.” In other words, he hasn’t a clue.

Kathleen Wynne, on the other hand, knows exactly how he’d do it. The Conservative plan, she claimed, “will put as many as 40,000 public sector jobs at risk. That means higher class sizes, longer waits for health care and fewer community supports.” She presented the coming Ontario election as “a stark choice” between “Conservatives who want to slash spending” and Liberals who believe “government is a force for good.”

These are, to be polite, generous helpings of nonsense. The idea that billions of dollars can be effortlessly sliced from public spending without anyone feeling a thing is obviously specious. But so, in its own way, is the idea that no cuts can be made without devastating public services — or that the Conservative proposals amount to “slashing” spending.

To be sure, the cuts in the Conservative platform — to the extent they still have one, or that anyone knows what is in it — are not pocket change. At the very least, the party would have to find the $6 billion over three years the “People’s Guarantee” (drafted under its previous leader, Patrick Brown) pencilled in as “savings from value for money audit.”

Chris Selley: With Wynne taking a Reefer Madness tone, Doug Ford is voice of reason on marijuana
John Robson: Wake up folks. You should have seen Doug Ford coming
Kelly McParland: The Tories still might win, but Doug Ford makes it harder
If it were also forced to do without the revenues from the federal carbon tax, which the People’s Guarantee had promised to accept but Ford has promised to fight, that’s another $10 billion it would have to find. That’s if it wanted to stick with its promise to run balanced budgets, starting next fiscal year.


That’s a lot of ifs. But suppose they cut the full $16 billion — again, that’s over three years: $3.3 billion in the first year, rising to $7.1 billion in year three (a little less if they merely balanced the budget, instead of running the small surpluses they propose). That sounds like a lot, until you remember how much the government spends overall: last year’s budget projected spending for next year at $135.8 billion. So we’re talking about roughly 2.4 per cent of spending in the first year, rising to 4.5 per cent three years out.

Could Ford cut four per cent out of annual spending just through “efficiencies”? It’s not as easy as it sounds. It isn’t that there isn’t a lot of fat in government. It’s that it’s hard to get at: that’s why it’s there. It’s difficult enough “driving efficiencies” in the private sector. But the nature of government — its vast size, its powerful unions, its many beneficiaries, its activities largely hidden from view until the moment someone tries to change anything, when they are suddenly lit by the flash of a thousand media Klieg lights — is such as to defeat even a management genius, let alone Ford, who is not a genius.

But let’s not exaggerate the size of the challenge, either. The 4.5 per cent the Tories would have to cut from spending by year three is from what it would have grown to by then. Essentially it amounts to flatlining spending in nominal terms — that is, holding it at the level to which the Liberals, after 15 years of herculean effort, have been able to raise it. Adjusting for increases in population and prices, that would wind spending all the way back to the dark days of 2009, under the Dickensian government of … Dalton McGuinty.

So we are a few horsemen short of an apocalypse. Where does Wynne get her 40,000 jobs “at risk” figure? From a piece in Maclean’s by Mike Moffatt, the economist and director of research at Canada 2020, a liberal (and Liberal) think-tank. But Moffatt didn’t say 40,000 jobs would be cut: just that that’s the number you get if you cut 4.5 per cent from what public sector employment will have grown to by then. Of course, that’s also pretty much the number you’d get from attrition, that is if you just refrained from hiring new staff to replace those who left. Again, not quite the conflagration Wynne had been banking on.

The idea that billions of dollars can be effortlessly sliced from public spending without anyone feeling a thing is obviously specious

What would it take to get us there? To shrink the size of government — or even to make room for the ever-expanding maw of health care spending — it is neither necessary nor advisable simply to cut spending across the board. To insist that government should continue to do everything it does now, only cheaper, is a fool’s errand: a recipe for substandard services and a sullen, aggrieved workforce. What’s needed, rather, is to think carefully about the role of government, what it should and should not do.

Lots of things the government does now — subsidizing business comes to mind — shouldn’t be done by anyone: they’re not just wasteful, but harmful. Lots of other things it does are worth doing, but could be done as well or better by the private or non-profit sector: it seems worth finding out, at least, if that is the case, by putting them to competitive tender.

And yes, some of the things government does it could do more efficiently — not by better central planning, as Ford proposes, but by structural reforms, changes to incentives that reward cost-consciousness rather than empire-building: for example, the “internal markets” that are the future of public health care. The sum of all these changes might well be a government that spent less — but as a consequence, not an objective; not at the expense of its core responsibilities, but by focusing on them.

Alas, these are the kinds of reforms that parties need to think about ahead of time, and seek a mandate for. There is no evidence that either leader has done the former, or intends the latter.
http://nationalpost.com/opinio.....sibilities


This clarifies the issue. It looks like there will be at least some lost jobs to me. At some point, how are you going to get the savings without shutting down programmes?

Am I shocked enough to vote for Wynne's team? Mmmm ... probably not.

When Hudak kicked off his campaign by announcing proudly that he intended to fire a lot of civil servants, it cost him the election. At the time, I applauded his forthright honesty. But that didn't work -- did it?

It is little wonder that any leader of the PCs would shy away from honesty after that?

But on the other hand, surely a lot of people realize that Ford's plans are bound to have an impact on careers in the civil service.

Perhaps Ford's real message is that he's going to do all he can do to squeeze fat out of the system, and that some of the fat is in the form of jobs, but that he's not going to cut whole programmes. But the budget is going to be balanced fundamentally through savings.

And that's OK with them.

It's important to keep in mind how bad the other choice is. They are the poster kids for mismanagement. Any government that could avoid $billion blunders like ORNG and the gas plant relocations could be part way there just for not having George Smitherman involved. As Cosmo says, balancing the budget is only a matter of going back to 2015 levels of expenditures.

That's my point of view. The real role of the Premier is to pick a team and give them the support they need to do the job. In the normal work situation they figure that 80% of the work will be done by 20% of the staff. There's another index they use -- in any group, most of the work will be done by the square root of the size of the group. It may not be accurate, but if these 'rules of thumb' have any resemblance to reality, it hints at what can happen, over time, to any large organization. And government is a large organization of large organizations. That's the reality that we're all talking about here. It is a landmine of unintended consequences.

But it'll only be worse next year if we don't start doing something. That's how I look at it.
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Cutting government spending the right way Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
As Cosmo says, balancing the budget is only a matter of going back to 2015 levels of expenditures.


Great idea to have this as its own thread!

The interesting thing is that on the estimated 2018 revenue, we would simply need to go back to 2017 levels of spending to generate a potential 7.7 billion dollar surplus;

12 months of spending roll back

That's it.

The OLP claimed their expenditures for 2017 were 134 billion;
The same OLP is citing its 141.7 billion dollars of projected revenue for 2018.

https://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/budget/ontariobudgets/2017/ch6b.html#c6-3
Table 6.6 for those interested.

If you don't spent one dollar less than you spent last year, you should have a 7.7 billion dollar surplus in 2018
RCO





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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

think part of the problem in Ontario is we don't really know the true state of the books , remember there was that feud between auditor general and government over there numbers . the financial situation could be much worse than we realise or it could be better and wynne is just spending like crazy


with that in mind it would be unreasonable for the pc's to make solid commitments at this point when they don't know what they'd be dealing with if they suddenly were the government

and any plan to return to no deficits or pay down the debt is going to have to be long term and require multiple terms in government to complete , a 2 year pc minority or even a 4 year majority would not be long enough to fix this mess in my view

and an extremely desperate liberal government will use anything against the pc's they can , they know a small 4% cut in government spending wouldn't lead to major job loses or be the end of the provincial government but if it gets them some traction in the polls why not say so?
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The attacks the Liberals will use will be the usual;
The Tories will attacked our nurses, teachers, and police officers by devastating their budgets and forcing them to do more with less. etc etc etc

The response to that needs to be simple;

https://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/budget/ontariobudgets/2017/ch6b.html#c6-3
Table 6.3

Healthcare is 38.1% (53.8b) of the budget
Elementary and Secondary Education is 18.8% (26.5b) of the budget
And the Justice Sector is 3.3% (4.7b) of the budget

Those three avenues which have been used by the Liberals as to why the budget cannot be cut in the slightest because any cut would impact them.

Yet they make up 85.2 billion dollars of the 141.1 billion dollars that was spent in 2017
Or 60.2% of the total budget

As I said in the other topic;
I would argue we don't need to touch dollar one from those aspects of the budget to present a balanced budget and more importantly to start chipping away at the debt.

We are being utterly reckless by racking up a 300 billion debt at a time when the economy is strong and interest is low because both of those things can change and the latter is already moving in a direction.

If revenue slows and interest rises our nearly 12 billion dollars a year in interest payments could double.

We could find ourselves in a situation where the cost of interest on the debt costs around the same as the entire elementary and secondary education budget for the province does year over year.

That is insane and needs to be addressed now.

Because some small efficiencies today to start paying down the debt could prevent massive austerity measures a decade from now.
RCO





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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cosmostein wrote:
The attacks the Liberals will use will be the usual;
The Tories will attacked our nurses, teachers, and police officers by devastating their budgets and forcing them to do more with less. etc etc etc

The response to that needs to be simple;

https://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/budget/ontariobudgets/2017/ch6b.html#c6-3
Table 6.3

Healthcare is 38.1% (53.8b) of the budget
Elementary and Secondary Education is 18.8% (26.5b) of the budget
And the Justice Sector is 3.3% (4.7b) of the budget

Those three avenues which have been used by the Liberals as to why the budget cannot be cut in the slightest because any cut would impact them.

Yet they make up 85.2 billion dollars of the 141.1 billion dollars that was spent in 2017
Or 60.2% of the total budget

As I said in the other topic;
I would argue we don't need to touch dollar one from those aspects of the budget to present a balanced budget and more importantly to start chipping away at the debt.

We are being utterly reckless by racking up a 300 billion debt at a time when the economy is strong and interest is low because both of those things can change and the latter is already moving in a direction.

If revenue slows and interest rises our nearly 12 billion dollars a year in interest payments could double.

We could find ourselves in a situation where the cost of interest on the debt costs around the same as the entire elementary and secondary education budget for the province does year over year.

That is insane and needs to be addressed now.

Because some small efficiencies today to start paying down the debt could prevent massive austerity measures a decade from now.


when I happened to be driving down the 400 the other day , I was amazed by how many multi million dollar construction projects there were on the go , new interchanges in innisfil and Bradford , with one also planned for barrie and other work taking place at 400/11 split and 400/Hw 9

but on a scale of 1-10 I'd honestly wonder how absolutely necessary some of this work is ? 2 of the interchanges seemed to be in areas with little of anything , I didn't see any roads, businesses or homes nearby , the one for south Bradford might be needed in the future but the town is getting by just fine without it now

and why do these projects take so long to complete ? the work at 400/11 and 400/9 has been going on for a couple years and shouldn't of taken this long to complete , the extended length of time on the project must surely up the cost significantly


we seem to have a government that can't say no to any project or request for funding that is part of the problem , when your $billions of dollars in debt its time to ask the question how necessary is this project , sure it be nice to have a new school or new highway interchange but if its not absolutely necessary maybe now isn't the time for the project

the province needs to figure out someway to bring down the debt and balance the books , it can't spend like this forever , it makes no financial sense and will lead to massive crippling debt for years and decades to come


wynne is spending like Ontario is in the middle of an oil boom but in reality its all just being added to the debt for the future generations to pay for
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cosmostein wrote:
The attacks the Liberals will use will be the usual;

Of course ! Always did , always will.
Quote:

The Tories will attacked our nurses, teachers, and police officers by devastating their budgets and forcing them to do more with less. etc etc etc

The response to that needs to be simple;

1)Nurses ,2) Teachers ,3) OPP
1)You will get a raise.
2)You wont get a raise
3) You MOST DEFINITELY wont get a raise, in fact we will roll you back since you are bankrupting every small and medium sized town with your completely stupid demands and really.....what do you do thats so special?
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RCO wrote:


when I happened to be driving down the 400 the other day , I was amazed by how many multi million dollar construction projects there were on the go , new interchanges in innisfil and Bradford , with one also planned for barrie and other work taking place at 400/11 split and 400/Hw 9

You best sit down then.

Thats the least of it. To come soon (soon is speculative of course)
- widening of Hwy 400 to 10 lanes from current six.
-interchanges at 89,
- Mapleview Drive, widened
- Innisfil Beach widened and re-done
- Essa roads and Dunlop and Bayfield streets. All redone.
-Hwy 400 multi lanes and divided all way thru Sudbury (Once Shawinagan -sp?- First Nation signs off)

Once that is done, look for Hwy 11 to be widened all the way thru Huntsville , (maybe doubtful as Gravenhurst would be enough)

Makes my commute hell in the short term....hopefully much better in long term.
Quote:
but on a scale of 1-10 I'd honestly wonder how absolutely necessary some of this work is ? 2 of the interchanges seemed to be in areas with little of anything , I didn't see any roads, businesses or homes nearby , the one for south Bradford might be needed in the future but the town is getting by just fine without it now

We can argue whether or not but.... we do need to be pro active and look to the future.
Also, well there may well NOT be any homes visible, there are towns and villages with not a smattering but large swaths of people who commute East (and West, less so west) and then south on the 400.

The idea, in someways, is to get the land now as it is harder when people are living there. Get the width in, sit on it for a decade and voila, its there if volume is too!
Quote:
and why do these projects take so long to complete ? the work at 400/11 and 400/9 has been going on for a couple years and shouldn't of taken this long to complete , the extended length of time on the project must surely up the cost significantly

This one is not easy to see.

There was an enormous amount of sub work to do , as the existing ramps had to be kept open w no lane closures. There are an amazing number of trucks that go up that way and they need to keep moving.

So they had to grade the land , bring it up to code (to match) all the way from the golf course to 5K up and around the ramp.
The start the shoring up, and so on and so on to the stage we are now.

But, to answer some of your Q?

No Friday work after 12PM until Monday morn. (Cottagers/commuters etc)
Limited evening work due to safety.

No soil compacting or soil work can occur when it is freezing out. Damn , there goes six months of the year!

And here we are. I too happen to think this could be done a bit faster but...we now it never does.
You know when it does? When it falls down 4 days after being done . (Yup...you know)

Quote:

but if its not absolutely necessary maybe now isn't the time for the project

It was. It was on the books for ever and finally got started.

Quote:
it makes no financial sense and will lead to massive crippling debt for years and decades to come


Or...we get ONtario moving better which benefits the entire country. As TO goes, so does the country.


Had Premier Wm Davis not been so short sided, the CIty of Toronto would have been moving and making more money by the fistfuls if these had not been cancelled....

-Spadina Expressway (think of the amount less on 427/QEW
-Continuation of Gardiner along top of the Beach (helps the 401 enormously plus DVP
-The DVP when approved, the builders sought to make it bigger as they could imagine more than 40,000 cars an hour on it. (seems they were right)
RCO





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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

but my point was maybe considering the financial situation at queens park they should focus on whats absolutely necessary for today and the immediate future


the list of potential projects you mentioned all have merit and would improve the 400 in some sense but most aren't critical in nature and the drivers using those roads are getting by as things are now. the reality is there isn't money for every possible project , why not just focus on the most critical ?


there has been talk of improving highway 11 thru muskoka for years , the MTO has been in the process of buying property along it and tearing down buildings for the last few years , if you've noticed things suddenly disappearing ( like the former wildlife centre south of gravenhurst and former sunways restaurant ? )

there was also talk back in 2000's of a new interchange in south Huntsville at south mary lake road /11 , land was bought for the project/ several homes moved or torn down and hydro poles moved yet it never got built for some reason ?
Bugs





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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TC is certainly spouting a refrain that so many want to believe -- that the engine of growth in Ontario is government spending!

We can note, too, the insouciant attitude. "We know best, we say its necessary, it's been planned for ages ... " The voice of the civil service. They just don't understand that sane people don't borrow money to expand already adequate infrastructure -- not in the financial condition we're in.

The original idea was that the civil service would do what the people want, rather than the people having to accept whatever the civil service decides. It must seem like a quaint idea to governments, who after all, hire on the basis of race and sex ...
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RCO wrote:
but my point was maybe considering the financial situation at queens park they should focus on whats absolutely necessary for today and the immediate future

I get your point but also realize we need to do something. The future changes will come slower than we realize due to the crunch that inevitably comes.
Quote:


the list of potential projects you mentioned all have merit and would improve the 400 in some sense but most aren't critical in nature and the drivers using those roads are getting by as things are now. the reality is there isn't money for every possible project , why not just focus on the most critical ?

Trucking.
They need to move faster and more often. The quicker they get going the more money we all make. Same as transit.

Quote:

there has been talk of improving highway 11 thru muskoka for years , the MTO has been in the process of buying property along it and tearing down buildings for the last few years , if you've noticed things suddenly disappearing ( like the former wildlife centre south of gravenhurst and former sunways restaurant ? )

Unless you have a link, I dont think this is correct
Sunways blew up (its the one on the east side right?) years ago, but it wasnt a money maker. Ergo, insurance paid out and they left the lot empty.
The plan was (its been delayed) to cut thru (bypass) about halfway from Orillia to MuskRd #6 and push a new route thru there. Not going to happen for many reasons, one being it cuts G-hurst off and they dont want to be.
Quote:

there was also talk back in 2000's of a new interchange in south Huntsville at south mary lake road /11 , land was bought for the project/ several homes moved or torn down and hydro poles moved yet it never got built for some reason ?

Not quite.
I believe there was one purchase but he rest have not .

This one in particular is one I have fought against. There is no need.

Idiot drivers being idiot drivers is the problem. There is clearly 1-2K of perfect sightlines but people just are not patient and jump out on the Hwy and get creamed. Ive had numerous debates on this one, one person wondering why it is his fault when he couldnt see around the NB car turning onto S Mary Lake Rd....and got hit.
IOW....car is turning and somewhat blocks hisview...so he pulls out and a tractor takes him out.

Seriously dude? WTF are you really this dumb ? I had a letter penned in the Huntsville Forester and caused some ruckus with 'dumb driver' routine.

That one wont get uilt for eons as no one wants it , but the signs are still up tho.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
TC is certainly spouting a refrain that so many want to believe

Its true unless a dishonest poster changes what was said.
Quote:
-- that the engine of growth in Ontario is government spending!

Ah yes....there we go. SMH.

One has to spend money to make money. If we can get traffic , trucks, goods moving faster and better, we all stand to do better.
The engine that runs this country is the GTA/Ontario.

Sheesh...
Quote:

We can note, too, the insouciant attitude. "We know best, we say its necessary, it's been planned for ages ... " The voice of the civil service. They just don't understand that sane people don't borrow money to expand already adequate infrastructure -- not in the financial condition we're in.

We are ok right now. We need to tighten the belt but we cannot afford to do what HArris did to our roads.

Our infrastructure is NOT adequate.

But I dont expect you to understand that. You have a small town thinking and you get jealous that the big boys need to spend big dollars.



Quote:
It must seem like a quaint idea to governments, who after all, hire on the basis of race and sex ...

Oh geez...<facepalm>

Yup, you must be from one of earths races and have a sex .

Lord you are one small town ham and egger aren't you ?
RCO





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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

why do transport trucks need to move faster ? I though they had devices in them that prevent them from speeding ? would it really be safe for them to be going any faster than they currently are on the 400 ?



the MTO has definitely been buying up some properties along highway 11 , I spoke to the owner of the former antique store south of gravenhurst in 2013 maybe ? his building would of been just south of that closed haraview burger place . he told me the mto had bought his building and wanted him gone


maybe they felt his location was unsafe for people to be stopping at , I don't know but that's what he told me and now the building is long gone , empty lot


the gas station on right side of the highway blew up several years ago but one on left side that had a large restaurant was closed down and torn down a couple years ago


but some businesses have closed on there own , the harveys on 11 closed and moved into gravenhurst instead , the country style closed maybe 10 years ago and empty since


they didn't need to purchase that many properties for the south mary lake road interchange ( as plan was to leave business area alone and build south of it ) but I agree very little if anything has been done there in last 10 years or more , but they did do some work there years ago in preparation ,
RCO





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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sunway Restaurant owners call it a career
( this article states that sunways closed in 2016, myself I was never in the restaurant and don't know if it was any good or not , owners citied rumours of highway expansions as one reason , building was torn down in 2016 , not mentioned in article but its a vacant lot now )


News Apr 06, 2016 by Brent Cooper  Gravenhurst Banner |

FAREWELL:


Duk and Sue Ryu bid the customers they call family farewell after 27 years.



KILWORTHY - Sunday was a bittersweet day for Duk and Sue Ryu.

People they considered family for many years, some for almost three decades, surrounded them, while everyone talked, laughed and shared memories of their times together.

However, by the end of the day, the couple had to say goodbye not only to their longtime acquaintances, but to a business they poured their heart and soul into for 27 years.


The Ryus officially closed the Sunway Restaurant, located on Highway 11 in Kilworthy on April 3, an enterprise they had owned since 1990.

Duk said they are retiring from the restaurant business, citing rumoured changes to Highway 11 South into six lanes as one of the reasons they decided to put up the closed sign for the last time.

“It is time for us to retire,” he said. “ We know they may have a plan for the highway so it will be very hard to handle the business. We will never know when the day (for the highway construction) will come ... so nobody will come and buy.”

Duk said business has always gone up and down, with the last few years being quite slow. He and Sue did say the one thing that has been a constant with the restaurant is the number of friends and memories they have made.

“A lot of kids have grown up to be adults and they have their own child,” he said.

“Some of our staff have been with us 22 or 23 years,” Sue added. “They are like family. Their kids have their own babies. We have a lot of grandpa and grandma customers.”

“It is more like a family business,” Duk said. “It was a hard decision, but it is time for us to leave.”


“We also have been working 27 years so we haven’t had a holiday at all,” she stated.

The couple said that on the day they officially closed, many of their long-time customers came out to wish them well. Some of the customers came from the Toronto area just to say thanks and have one last meal at the Sunway.

Duk said he is not sure what they will do with the building, adding they may have to demolish it one day. For now, the Ryus are still at the restaurant this week, cleaning up and managing their remaining assets.

They think one day they may return to the Toronto region, closer to their family and to spend time with their young grandchild.

However, they are not ruling out the possibility of staying in the Muskoka area, since it has been home for many years now.

“We still feel connected to the people all around,” Duk said. “They are family.”


https://www.muskokaregion.com/news-story/6442723-sunway-restaurant-owners-call-it-a-career/
Bugs





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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the gentle reader ... there's different ways you can use the roads. Bigger road systems may mean most loads get through a bit faster, but the volume of traffic may not increase that much or quickly enough to justify the expense. Often the success of these projects socio-economically depends on timing. Civil servants look for the opportunity to get their project past the political bottleneck. That's the only timing' they are concerned about.

Nowhere in this process are the interests of the ordinary Ontarian taken into account. It's seen as a tax on commerce and the roads are being proposed and waved through as the last attempts of the old regime to have their version of reality reproduced on the material plane.

My point -- these are likely the pet projects that couldn't justify themselves in the preceding dozen years. We all know how the bureaucracy works. These are the lowest priority projects of the swivel-servants at Queens Park.

Roads are often used as a development tool, but they can be overbuilt. There are other considerations. How about transportation solutions that don't involve automobiles? A rail line? Truck traffic is likely to be automated within a decade, for examples, which means that use of the same roads could be intensified. And there is the larger financial picture. It's even worthwhile to have some of these projects on tap for recessions and things, for example, ready to go on short notice in case of a recession.

There are two philosophies at war here. TC's view could be summed up as "Build a road and they will come ... and generate taxes in the future". The view I suggest is "Pave where they have worn a path so that they go deeper towards their destination as free people will.." It's different.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RCO wrote:
why do transport trucks need to move faster ? I though they had devices in them that prevent them from speeding ? would it really be safe for them to be going any faster than they currently are on the 400 ?

The idea is to prevent traffic jams which means slower. Not the actually speed...but the movement.
Quote:

the MTO has definitely been buying up some properties along highway 11 , I spoke to the owner of the former antique store south of gravenhurst in 2013 maybe ? his building would of been just south of that closed haraview burger place . he told me the mto had bought his building and wanted him gone

Ok, didnt know that but good to hear. Less hassle in the future when they finally decide to build.
Quote:


but some businesses have closed on there own , the harveys on 11 closed and moved into gravenhurst instead , the country style closed maybe 10 years ago and empty since

Harveys? Dont recall. The Country style is now the another donut/convenience stop.
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they didn't need to purchase that many properties for the south mary lake road interchange ( as plan was to leave business area alone and build south of it ) but I agree very little if anything has been done there in last 10 years or more , but they did do some work there years ago in preparation ,
Minimal work. Mainly signs and some lot clearing for presumably survey work.
I bet this one is the same in ten years. Nothing.
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