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Craig
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islam is legalized extremism.
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: burning qur'an Reply with quote

joan wrote:
I wonder if the whole problem isn't twofold. That is, I think those behind the ideological perversion of Islam to incite violence, are not believers in anything but secular criminals whose goals are profit and power.
Yeah, I really don't think you get it. Islam has always been an imperialist, expansionist, supremacist creed. Your comments do not make any sense.

Muslims the world over have always built mosques at the sites of their great military triumphs. When you actually learn some history, I encourage you to come back and comment; when you are done paying the jizya, and realize that you do not want to willingly submit to sharia.
bsenka





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking out against a false prophet and destroying a document that pays homage to him? Seems to me that's exactly what Jesus would do.
joan





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:44 pm    Post subject: burning qur'an Reply with quote

My previous comments appear to have upset kwlafayette who, it seems, either misunderstood or intentionally misinterpreted what I said. Kwlafayette, I invite you to take a closer look at what I wrote. Then you will appreciate I have no interest in doing what you suggest -- submitting willingly to shari'a or paying the jizya. My comments were a strong statement of opposition to both. Also, I don't take orders from you. I will return and comment whenever I choose. I have as much knowledge as you do, although as is true of all of us, it is likely vastly diverse. It was Tony Blair who recently told media he considers the enemy "a perversion of Islam" and it was with that opinion that I analyzed that part of my comments. I have read, once, a translation of the Qur'an and what struck me was how like the Christian Bible it is in being contradictory from one book to another. It further struck me that anyone could emphasize one or another of the contradictions to support any political ideology. You are correct, of course, that Islam has been used to support war as have other religions. And I agree with the opinion of many that what is problematic about the conflict between Islam and Judeo-Christian ideology is that while Christ advised to give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God, Mohammed advised political action on behalf of God. Christ advised a separation of religion from politics (except in anticipation of the coming Kingdom of God) whereas Mohammed incorporated government and religion (and taxation, as you pointed out). Still, I think I am correct that those involved in inciting violence with quotations of the Qur'an do not serve any God or if they think they do, they are mistaken. From what I've read of the Qur'an which admittedly does not take into account the historical baggage, including the resentment of Hagar for Sarah and vice versa, its texts can be used to promote nonviolence as much as violence, depending on where the emphasis is made. Habit, like what I observe in justice systems, may be what has made it usual to rely on those portions of the Qur'an that incite violence towards infidels as it has perverted justice from an enforcement of the law to an enforcement of favors owed to gangsters. And I think those at the top of the aggression towards infidels are career criminals with no God. I think they are self aware and committed to grasping power and control and to profiting from war. From your response to what I said, kwlafavette, it seems I hit a sore spot. Look in a mirror.
don muntean





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islamists are 'religious' and they believe that their interpretations are the most authorized so I'm not sure what Joan is getting at when she says that they are not religious.

However misguided they are - they certainly do claim to be acting on behalf of God.

As one can indeed see there are positives and negatives in any holy book but - the measure must be of the broad message and the practices used to spread that message and the impact of that message on followers and those around them.

In that light we can examine what any faith 'was' what it 'is' today and will likely 'become' in the future...
don muntean





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:53 pm    Post subject: Re: burning qur'an Reply with quote

joan wrote:
Canada's Prime Minister describes his God, his Christ as tolerant. He encourages others to be tolerant too. And I agree. But tolerance and intimidation may look alike, the difference being the two being freedom. Tolerance involves choice; intimidation does not. I agree we should tolerate what the pastor has proposed; that is, not to cut his head off in response to what has certainly been provocative of global discussion. And I agree we should encourage others to tolerate what the pastor has done, not to cut his head off or cut the heads of others off or to murder anyone in response, but to encourage him, with the pen and with words, to desist his battle provocation. Well, he may say it was he/we who is/are provoked and you have to admit, he'd have a point. But the egg and the chicken, etc. so where does that lead? I wonder if the whole problem isn't twofold. That is, I think those behind the ideological perversion of Islam to incite violence, are not believers in anything but secular criminals whose goals are profit and power. I think, if we looked really closely at al qaeda and its network of organizations, we'd find many, many non-Muslims along for the ride, for the profit and for the chance to be lord over women and children and for the opportunity to practice sadistic cruelties with impunity. On the other hand, I wonder if the wound that makes Muslims recruited to do the dirty work for these criminals particularly susceptible to the arguments used to incite violence doesn't have its roots in domestic conflict. That is, my reading of the Bible tells me that as Sarah and Abraham grew older, they despaired of having a son and so Sarah asked Abraham to plant his seed in her slave, Hagar. He did, and Hagar gave birth to Ishmael, the antecedent of Islam's Mohammed. After Ishmael was born, Sarah got pregnant with Isaac. Then when Isaac was baptised, Sarah took offense to Ishmael's attitude and asked Abraham to send him and his mother off. He did so, but did not stop familial relations with them. Hagar went on to experience hardship that could have been avoided had Sarah not perhaps misused her power, as wife, to hurt Hagar and to undermine Ishmael's birthright as first son.

I took out a copy of the Qur'an from my local library and scanned it. That was the best I could do on first reading, as it is just as difficult to decipher as a Rushdie novel. But I was struck by a section called "Thunder" that appears to advise leaving the outcome of everything to God, which sounds eerily like what the Christian God might say.

Joan


Hi Joan! Could you please use paragraph breaks to make reading your posts easier? :)
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know exactly what you said Joan. Suicide bombings, beheadings, child rape; none of that is a perversion of Islam, that IS Islam. Aisha, the jizya, killing infidels, spreading the faith by the sword, raping women, that is all there in the koran. All the crimes of the false prophet Mohamed, held up as if it were some great example of how to live a life.

I know exactly what you said, it is right there for all to see, I quoted it. If you do not like having that pointed out, then you should think twice before posting.

The koran, to put it plainly, is seventh century barbarism, bound in leather. It is like if Sun Tzu's 'The Art of War' were interpreted as a religion.

It is not a religion of peace, it is a cult of war and terror and death.
OnPointOffTopic





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joan, Islam has millions of it's own apologists and power fed Mullahs who incite.
Rose coloured glasses were recalled decades ago!

kwlafayette...
Quote:
It is not a religion of peace, it is a cult of war and terror and death.


Jews don't behead anyone.
Catholics don't stone women.
Buddhists don't declare pets as ungodly.
No faith calls upon the husband to publically beat his wife.
NO head of ANY religion, other than Islam openly declares other faithful as infidels, worthy only of death.

Islam has never made a decisive and loud denunciation of the gangs of violent men who kill innocents.
Craig
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We destroy our own extremists. It is time they did the same. It should not be our job to fight Islam. Those who love Islam should defend it from those who they claim don't represent it. If they don't represent it then do something about it. There are a couple of brave Muslims who stand up and speak out but not nearly enough. It is time to stop giving so-called moderates a free pass. Their religion = their problem. Deal with it yourselves or step aside and allow us to do it our way.
SmartCon





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
Islam is legalized extremism.


Well, it does not seem that far off from the bible really. Just some examples of extremism in the bible:

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."
(Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

"Suppose you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God hands them over to you and you take captives. And suppose you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you are attracted to her and want to marry her. If this happens, you may take her to your home, where she must shave her head, cut her fingernails, and change all her clothes. Then she must remain in your home for a full month, mourning for her father and mother. After that you may marry her. But if you marry her and then decide you do not like her, you must let her go free. You may not sell her or treat her as a slave, for you have humiliated her." (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NLT)

"Suppose a man has a stubborn, rebellious son who will not obey his father or mother, even though they discipline him. In such cases, the father and mother must take the son before the leaders of the town. They must declare: 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious and refuses to obey. He is a worthless drunkard.' Then all the men of the town must stone him to death. In this way, you will cleanse this evil from among you, and all Israel will hear about it and be afraid." (Deuteronomy 21:18-21 NLT)

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst." (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." Deuteronomy 22:28-29

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Craig
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SmartCon wrote:
Craig wrote:
Islam is legalized extremism.


Well, it does not seem that far off from the bible really. Just some examples of extremism in the bible:

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."
(Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

"Suppose you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God hands them over to you and you take captives. And suppose you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you are attracted to her and want to marry her. If this happens, you may take her to your home, where she must shave her head, cut her fingernails, and change all her clothes. Then she must remain in your home for a full month, mourning for her father and mother. After that you may marry her. But if you marry her and then decide you do not like her, you must let her go free. You may not sell her or treat her as a slave, for you have humiliated her." (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NLT)

"Suppose a man has a stubborn, rebellious son who will not obey his father or mother, even though they discipline him. In such cases, the father and mother must take the son before the leaders of the town. They must declare: 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious and refuses to obey. He is a worthless drunkard.' Then all the men of the town must stone him to death. In this way, you will cleanse this evil from among you, and all Israel will hear about it and be afraid." (Deuteronomy 21:18-21 NLT)

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst." (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." Deuteronomy 22:28-29

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)


Did I say the Koran is legalized extremism. Or did I say the Islam is? Let me check. I said "Islam". Christianity is 500 years ahead of Islam. Islam is as progressive as Christians were 500 years ago. But thanks for your pro-Islam anti-Christian contributions. If you think it will spare you from their wrath you are mistaken. If you are an atheist (as you sound) you will be first in line. Good luck with that.

If you look around the world are Christians cutting off the heads of non-believers? I'm not particularly religious. I don't go to Church. I probably fall into the agnostic category. But it is atheists who I despise the most of any religious or non-religious group in the world. They are so full of themselves. They even name themselves "smart". It is hilarious. My wife has a Ph.D in physics and is smarter than 99.9999% of atheists in the world but goes to church every Sunday. These jackasses think they know. Guess what - nobody knows. Nobody.

Muslims are laughing at you. It is traitorous people like you that allow them to succeed. They know it. They love you. Every day a mosque is built in North American and it is precisely because of people like you. Whenever anyone attacks the most regressive and hateful religion in the world today people like you come to its defense. You take pleasure in pointing out that the Bible says bad things too. Nevermind that Christians have evolved. Hanging gay people isn't even remotely tolerated in Christian-based countries. It happens on a regular occurrence in many Muslim nations. But in your eyes they are equal.

Christianity built the west into what it is today. There is a huge difference between the value systems of western nations and Islamic nations but people like you turn a blind eye to it. Western values and the western way of life will be dead in 50 years thanks to insular and arrogant people like you.

Every single scientific theory completely falls apart on the ultimate question of creation. At least religion doesn't pretend to know - for religious people it is just faith. They don't know - they just believe. Until science has the ultimate answer it is NO BETTER than any religion - period.
don muntean





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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a basis of understanding we can look at it from a historical perspective...at what point during ww2 did the terms "German" and "Nazi" become so synonymous so as to be pretty much indistinguishable and interchangeable one from the other? What were the factors leading to this indistinguishable identity?

It must be that the mainstream Muslim community within Western Nations are still yet in denial about the level of the problem in their midst.

There are for a fact some within the community who are extremist leaning. They are recruiting followers from within that community - it's not that people from the general population fall into this path.

As noted - it is up to this community to confront this issue.

If they confront it - then there cannot be the allegations of anti-Muslim sentiments and "Islamophobia" which are seen - when 'outsiders' have to comment on and/confront the issues of extremists in their midst.

If this community fears being painted with a broad brush then they should have an increased motivation to take this responsibility - to ensure that they do not look the other way when they encounter extremists in their midst.

Naturally they don't want to live in a "cry witch" community setting - yet - they have to consider the long term results of this indifference within their community! What are the alternatives?

In other groups that has been the way - Christians are critical of other Christians and Jews are critical of other Jews and Hindus are critical of other Hindus and - they are all routinely critical of each other.

There is little room for such indifference within their mainstream - to tolerate radicalization and the propaganda of radicals .

We have seen this with the noted pastor - he has been widely criticized by Christians Jews and others! They did so without fearing recriminations - that they would be targeted by the pastor and/or his followers.

As noted [and seized upon by SmartCon] all holy books contain references that are questionable by today's standards - yet - we have to take things in context - one factor of context being the modern interpretation/application of said texts.

Judaism Christianity and Hinduism have all moved forward from various antiquated teachings - their mainstream followers do not ascribe any contemporary relevance to 'out dated' texts within their holy books.

In many parts of the world Islam is still practiced through many 'antiquated' teachings within the Koran - places like Saudi Arabia and Iran - specifically - and generally - any places we see Islamic theocracies.

We might have to remind some people that many many many Muslims living in the west came here - fleeing from these oppressive and regressive 'Islamic' nations!!

Another factor has to be considered. How much money and efforts have the Saudis invested in the propagation of Wahhabism amongst the West's Muslim communities?

Not all Muslims share the same beliefs - just as those following Judaism Christianity and Hinduism - do not all share the same beliefs - within those respective faiths.

There is an ideological war going on within Islam. The 'radicals' are apparently winning it - when assessed on a global scale!?

It is not possible to discuss the breath and depth of this issue in a few postings and - that is why we conservatives encourage people posting/reading here to do some honest research into these [and other] issues and their history...

I want to share this picture again - I made it about 5 years ago - it shows that while humanity has different paths to God - we DO share ONE common home:

joan





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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:17 am    Post subject: burning qu'rans Reply with quote

KW has again tried to force me out of blogging tories, telling me, who he has never met that I "don't get it" and should not come back to the blog until I agree with his/her point of view. Nice equity, KW. So much for your espoused values. And yes, you have misquoted me but I'm not going to waste time further on your misinterpretation. Thinking Tories will understand how wily the enemy is. For instance, on this very blog we will find some of them trying to get rid of those of us who really do get it. So, be careful...
SmartCon





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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
Did I say the Koran is legalized extremism. Or did I say the Islam is? Let me check. I said "Islam". Christianity is 500 years ahead of Islam. Islam is as progressive as Christians were 500 years ago. But thanks for your pro-Islam anti-Christian contributions. If you think it will spare you from their wrath you are mistaken. If you are an atheist (as you sound) you will be first in line. Good luck with that.

If you look around the world are Christians cutting off the heads of non-believers? I'm not particularly religious. I don't go to Church. I probably fall into the agnostic category. But it is atheists who I despise the most of any religious or non-religious group in the world. They are so full of themselves. They even name themselves "smart". It is hilarious. My wife has a Ph.D in physics and is smarter than 99.9999% of atheists in the world but goes to church every Sunday. These jackasses think they know. Guess what - nobody knows. Nobody.

Muslims are laughing at you. It is traitorous people like you that allow them to succeed. They know it. They love you. Every day a mosque is built in North American and it is precisely because of people like you. Whenever anyone attacks the most regressive and hateful religion in the world today people like you come to its defense. You take pleasure in pointing out that the Bible says bad things too. Nevermind that Christians have evolved. Hanging gay people isn't even remotely tolerated in Christian-based countries. It happens on a regular occurrence in many Muslim nations. But in your eyes they are equal.

Christianity built the west into what it is today. There is a huge difference between the value systems of western nations and Islamic nations but people like you turn a blind eye to it. Western values and the western way of life will be dead in 50 years thanks to insular and arrogant people like you.

Every single scientific theory completely falls apart on the ultimate question of creation. At least religion doesn't pretend to know - for religious people it is just faith. They don't know - they just believe. Until science has the ultimate answer it is NO BETTER than any religion - period.


Islam is articulated by the Quran, they are therefore one in the same. Without the Quran there would be no Islam. Just as without the Bible there would be no Christians.

I'm not worried about the "wrath" of Islam. There is no wrath of Islam, just a few crazies with a crazy interpretation of the Quran.

You state "Muslims are laughing at you. It is traitorous people like you that allow them to succeed". As far as I am concerned, you're a bigot. Maybe you should let your wife with the PhD take over your blogg. How can you paint all Muslims as the enemy as you have here? There are many Muslims who are peaceful. They don't act on the extremist portions of the Quran just like many Christians don't act on extreme portions of the Bible I pointed out above.

As far as I am concerned, there is no "us" and "them". There is no conflict between Islam and Christianity. There is simply conflict between the world at large and those who use religious text to justify extremism.
Craig Smith





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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SmartCon wrote:
As far as I am concerned, you're a bigot.


A bigot is someone who is partial to their own group. I'm not partial to my own group. I'm partial against one group.

Are you a bigot because you hate Nazis?

Quote:
Maybe you should let your wife with the PhD take over your blogg.


This isn't a blog.

Quote:
How can you paint all Muslims as the enemy as you have here?


Nope. I have done nothing of the sort. I have simply said that Islam is evil. I hate smoking but that doesn't mean I hate smokers.

Quote:
There are many Muslims who are peaceful.


There have been over 16,000 documented terror attacks in the name of Islam since 9/11 (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/). They are all documented. At what point do you start to ask yourself maybe this Islam thing isn't so peaceful after all?

Quote:
They don't act on the extremist portions of the Quran just like many Christians don't act on extreme portions of the Bible I pointed out above.


People are committing terrorist attacks in the name of Islam at a rate of 250 per month in countless countries around the world. Why do you keep defending it? The peaceful Muslims are peaceful because they are human beings NOT because they are Muslim.

Quote:
As far as I am concerned, there is no "us" and "them". There is no conflict between Islam and Christianity. There is simply conflict between the world at large and those who use religious text to justify extremism.


Then you are naive.
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Burning Korans - Your Thoughts?

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