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SFrank85





Joined: 03 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BHundo wrote:
Quote:
Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism, of the theory and practice of scientific socialism. - Lenin


Okay... Bear with me I'm a little slow.

So Lenin thought that you had to make the people atheists for socialism to work?

Is that it? Did I get it?

So if atheism is a requirement of socialism (according to you and Lenin), does that mean that atheism leads to socialism? or marxism? or anything negative whatsoever?

That's the money question: Does atheism actually cause people to do anything negative, politics or otherwise?


Besides the law of this land, who are you accountable to? Who will judge your actions? If there is no higher power to judge your actions, then it makes things a lot easier to kill people to conform to a political belief in International Solidarity.

Lenin, Stalin, Mao all killed their people because they were above the law of their nation, and they believed they had no higher law or higher judge who they had to be accountable to, so they got away with killing 20-50 million people in the Soviet Union, and 40+ million in China.
BHundo





Joined: 23 Nov 2009
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Location: SW Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sound like a broken record I know, but again I'm not an expert. I don't think I would take everything in the bible as fact without at least verifying the information somewhere else. I don't want to offend anyone, but I know that the Noah's Ark situation is impossible and it says that in the book (I think?)
Cool Blue





Joined: 21 Sep 2006
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Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So Lenin thought that you had to make the people atheists for socialism to work?


Yes, atheism is a core principle of communism.

All communist (atheist) governments have at some time to varying degrees oppressed religion (in some cases killing millions of religious people).

Quote:
So if atheism is a requirement of socialism (according to you and Lenin), does that mean that atheism leads to socialism? or marxism? or anything negative whatsoever?


Not necessarily.

But keep in mind that atheist/communist governments have killed million of religious people and some are still operating in this fashion.

Atheists need to keep in mind that some religious people become very offended when they don't recognize that every atheist government has persecuted religion. To some denying this is equal to stating that National Socialism (Nazism) doesn't necessarily lead to the genocide of Jews.
Craig Smith





Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BHundo wrote:
Quote:
If you can't even recognize the relationship between communism and religion then we might as well shut down this thread because there is no point in debating with somebody who can't recognize reality.


please humour me, I really don't understand how atheism caused communism (if thats what you are saying, I don't know). I can recognize reality if its in front of me, but I suppose I could be a little slow with history and you might be able to explain it to me. I am being serious.


Communism and religion have had a changing relationship since the idea of communism first appeared, and especially since the creation of Marxism by Karl Marx. In the Marxist-Leninist interpretation, communism was completely atheistic and explicitly antireligious.

Its implementation under Communist states generally included the institution of state atheism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.....d_religion

Lenin on religion

Vladimir Lenin was highly critical of religion, saying in his book Religion

Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism, of the theory and practice of scientific socialism.

"The Soviet Union was an atheist state, in which religion was largely discouraged and heavily persecuted."

"Albania was declared an atheist state by Enver Hoxha,[6] and remained so from 1967 until 1991."

etc. etc.


Last edited by Craig Smith on Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
Cool Blue





Joined: 21 Sep 2006
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Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BHundo wrote:
I sound like a broken record I know, but again I'm not an expert. I don't think I would take everything in the bible as fact without at least verifying the information somewhere else. I don't want to offend anyone, but I know that the Noah's Ark situation is impossible and it says that in the book (I think?)


Not everybody interprets the stories in the Bible literally.

However, before you dismiss the story of Noah completely keep in mind that a number of cultures around the world have similar stories involving a great flood.

Furthermore, there is some scientific evidence that there may have been a massive flood thousands of years ago which wiped out a large percentage of species. In fact, DNA evidence of homo sapien fossils shows that at one point there was a huge drop in genetic diversity among the population...that is a large percentage of the population was no longer around to pass on their genes to the next generation.
Craig Smith





Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I really don't understand how atheism caused communism (if thats what you are saying, I don't know)


No offense dude because you seem fairly reasonable but he said there was a relationship. He didn't say "atheism caused communism". People being obtuse is a real pet peeve of mine.
Cool Blue





Joined: 21 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig Smith wrote:
Quote:
I really don't understand how atheism caused communism (if thats what you are saying, I don't know)


No offense dude because you seem fairly reasonable but he said there was a relationship. He didn't say "atheism caused communism". People being obtuse is a real pet peeve of mine.


Try not to go hard on him.

In my experience, no offence to our friend, most people who claim to be atheist don't have the best analytical skills and tend to only claim to be atheist because "they don't like Bush and some celebrity said atheism is cool".
BHundo





Joined: 23 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Besides the law of this land, who are you accountable to?


Nobody, I'm a free man.

Quote:
Who will judge your actions?


probably you

Quote:
If there is no higher power to judge your actions, then it makes things a lot easier to kill people to conform to a political belief in International Solidarity.


There are many things that keep a man from murdering besides religion. As for conforming in a political belief .... like before I don't see how that works.


Quote:
Lenin, Stalin, Mao all killed their people because they were above the law of their nation,


they were ABLE to kill people because they were above the law. They did not kill because they were above the law. But good question, do you think atheism motivated the killing?

Quote:
and they believed they had no higher law or higher judge who they had to be accountable to, so they got away with killing 20-50 million people in the Soviet Union, and 40+ million in China.


I totally understand the idea that someone can be prevented from doing something for fear of punishment. I get that for sure. Its important to remember that there are things that prevent murder besides fear of retribution. And if atheists are more likely to murder, why can you not see this in prison populations?
Cool Blue





Joined: 21 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And if atheists are more likely to murder, why can you not see this in prison populations?


I'm not aware of any studies but I'm willing to bet that there are more atheists in prison than there are murderers in church.
Craig Smith





Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BHundo wrote:
But good question, do you think atheism motivated the killing?


Absolutely. It is well documented that religious people were persecuted by atheists predominantly under communist rule.
mrsocko





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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bhundo wrote:
Quote:
I sound like a broken record I know, but again I'm not an expert.


Quote:
Okay... Bear with me I'm a little slow.


Quote:
that's a bit confusing still


Quote:
I must be the naive one


Quote:
I could be a little slow with history


Quote:
I really don't understand


Quote:
I don't know, do you?


Quote:
can you explain this I don't understand


Always thought atheists had closed minds but this is a little ridiculous don't cha think? :roll:
crazymamma





Joined: 18 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No disrespect to any of the other fine atheists on the board, but I have witnessed this deliberate tactic time and time again used by a lot of atheists on forums.


Boredom rather then intellectual discussion must be the end game.
Sean McAllister





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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the most ridiculous thread I have ever seen.
BHundo





Joined: 23 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
BHundo wrote:
But good question, do you think atheism motivated the killing?


Absolutely. It is well documented that religious people were persecuted by atheists predominantly under communist rule.


I understand that religious people may have been killed because their beliefs or churches or whatever might have got in the way of some dictator's plans, but that does not mean the killing was motivated by a lack of belief in a god. Being an atheist is just not buying into a religion, thats all. Believing in god is not the only way to be a moral person. Does anyone disagree with that last sentence?
thurmas





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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ugh why do you guys keep posting all these religous posts who cares if someone is atheist or catholic or lutheran or whatever as long as we are good decent people who cares whether soemone believes in christ or not. I keep my religon to myself just because someone is agnostic or atheist or whatever I won't label them a commie.
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