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Edmund Onward James





Joined: 04 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:56 am    Post subject: TOBACCO DILEMMA Reply with quote

I quit cigarettes 30 years ago. However, in the past few years I enjoy cigars. My father smoked cigarettes, and so did many actors, so I thought it was cool back then.

Tobacco companies were basically carpetbaggers, once they had the open market they went all out with sexy or tough advertising. They added nicotine to hook the smokers, especially youth. Shame on them. They were caught, fined, sued, embarrassed and paid up. Theyíre still legal. I suppose, today, we choose our vices and poison.

Then there are the other bad guys that do not follow rules. They sell contraband tobacco and other goodies, particularly to teenagers and younger kids.
I took this lightly, like most: whatís the big deal, governments often waste the taxpayersí money and people are fed with the cost of living in Canada.

The irony of all this is that governments make ridiculous money by taxing to death -- and now Ontario healthcare is suing tobacco companies once more. But the governments, along with the lax jurisprudence system, do little about the selling of contraband to the youth. Even the RCMP is shackled to investigate transport trucks and cars etc.

I was invited to attend a local gathering of the National Coalition Against Contraband Tobacco organized by Canadian Convenience Stores Association in Newmarket, Ontario. Convenience store owners and employees, police officers, concerned citizens, and a few others were present. But not as many that should have been there. I found out itís a problem, which leads to more problems, some very serious.

Pot smoking mainstream media reporters, old hippies, neo-progressives have, or would, probably dismiss this as propaganda promulgated by the tobacco industry since they contribute funds to the association and coalition presentations. So what. Itís legal. They are trying to keep their business reasonably clean, though the product could harm. Furthermore, contraband isnít a victimless crime.

Organized criminals, gangs, native crooks (some Mohawks of Akwesasne) donít care about anybody. Itís about money. Large amounts. Millions leading to billions. There are 30 major organized gangs in Ontario, 105 across Canada. They have set up highly sophisticated distribution. Buyers are smug because they save money and whatís the big deal, even marijuana should be legalized, or the charges and sentencing should be lenient.

The bad guys have penetrated high schools and public schools. Newmarket area is the worst in Ontario. They donít care whatís in the tobacco, such as feces and worm and bug eggs. Hey, it probably improves the taste.

Remember, once the predators enter the school grounds with candy in any form, one cigarette fine, ecstasy sure, Rocky-Mountain-Loco-Weed no problem, the kids have been hooked and become part of the network, the community. During my youthful days, pot was the substance of the community, flower-children and Woodstock crowd, who insisted it was okay, one wouldnít get addicted. It should be legalized. Perhaps the majority didnít escalate to another high, but I didnít care for the drug, any drug, unless it was legal and for medicinal purposes.

Cigarettes, and whiskey, and wild-wild women was my thing. The added-value was my kind of music Sarah, Ella, Francis, Dino, Sammy, also some classic Rhythm & Blues. Party time with the Rat Pack or James Brown.

However, I quit drinking alcohol, years ago; too many hangovers and the recovery became longer. As a matter of fact, I tried to experience the natural high, and for me, it worked. Jogging, cycling, hiking, camping, train and bus trips to places like the Grand Canyon. Now I cycle with a cigar in my mouth: The Stogie Cyclist. Well whoís perfect? But itís still legal, until the nanny state think-tank conclude that outdoor smokers are part of the pollution and global warming.

If you want to know more about the National Coalition and the contraband issue click onto... http://www.stopcontrabandtobacco.ca/
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
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votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must be the luckiest guy in the world. I grew up surrounded by smokers. My parents both smoked (both have now quit). My siblings all smoked (some still do) yet I'm a non-smoker. I experimented with cigarettes as a teen but didn't like the taste. I've tried cigars too. Marginally better but still not good.

-Mac
Edmund Onward James





Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 1317
Reputation: 55
votes: 2

PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are several problems with this dilemma, but surely more people might speak up about contraband by organized criminals, even if the supplier looks like your next door neighbour, so the teenagers can choose, hopefully when they're older.

They ought to make smoking illegal for those under 19. No smoking at school, outside, in front.

Cigars are a different thing, because men usually start them when they golf or are a part of the military (soldiers love cigars), or the everyday fellow like me who has an oral fixation -- one might say a pacifier.

In this nanny state, Ontario, I am relegated to smoking on my bicycle or at home. So be it... for now.

Contraband tobacco and other goodies is a serious problem, amongst many more.
paisley_cross





Joined: 09 Jul 2008
Posts: 806
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votes: 3
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where I live illegal selling of cigarettes is done openly from roadside stands - no effort is made to enforce the law. So long as that goes on, I only have one word for the pols who whine and complain about smoking and health - hypocrites.

I haven't smoked cigarettes for a long time. I do enjoy the odd cigar once in a while though.
fiscalconservative





Joined: 08 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Politicians are afraid of the people who sell illegal tobaco. If they make an effort to stop it, there will be violence, and its very hard for politicians to control the impact of violence.

Certain reserves in Ontario are begining to look like the tribal homelands in Pakistan. Controlled by corrupt miltia's who make money from drugs.

If we don't do something about it, I think we owe Al Capone and Italian mob an apology.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
Reputation: 104
votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fiscalconservative wrote:
Politicians are afraid of the people who sell illegal tobaco. If they make an effort to stop it, there will be violence, and its very hard for politicians to control the impact of violence.

Certain reserves in Ontario are begining to look like the tribal homelands in Pakistan. Controlled by corrupt miltia's who make money from drugs.

If we don't do something about it, I think we owe Al Capone and Italian mob an apology.

Part of the problem is linked to political correctness. After all, all natives are noble and all reserves are sacred ground. Criminals take advantage of the stereotypes and scream "racism" if someone tried to enforce the laws. They know politicians lack the intestinal fortitude to dismantle the criminal operations... and police know they won't be "backed up" by the politicians so they look the other way; the legacy of Dudley George.

Jack at Jacksnewswatch calls this "FIDO" policing.

-Mac
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:


Part of the problem is linked to political correctness. After all, all natives are noble and all reserves are sacred ground. Criminals take advantage of the stereotypes and scream "racism" if someone tried to enforce the laws.

-Mac


I think the problem is that the media never reports the criminal nature of these crimes and the criminal histories of the people involved.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
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votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fiscalconservative wrote:
I think the problem is that the media never reports the criminal nature of these crimes and the criminal histories of the people involved.

Doesn't that sound like political correctness to you?

-Mac
Edmund Onward James





Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 1317
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votes: 2

PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that the governments and bureaucrats could do something. For one thing change the reservations to individual ownership, arrest the troublesome natives, not the ones who follow the laws, theirs and ours.

Then there are the white, black, and yellow organized criminals. Once they connect life is never the same.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And here I thought something substantive was going to be discussed, like how the government profits from a product that is known to be harmful, or how it is now in the gov's interest to keep tobacco going (at least if they ever want to actually collect those billions). Or, if it was really OK for government to levy extra taxes on one industry, and then sue that industry to collect even more (if they can do it to tobacco, one assumes it would be easy to do it to the oilsands say).

PS. Just so everyone knows where I stand; smokers are not victims, they made a choice. Smokers and tobacco companies pay the same taxes as everyone else, in addition to special sin taxes, so they have already paid for higher life style risk with regard to medical care. Letting the government change laws so they can sue the private sector is a terrible idea that only a big state supporting crypto communist could love.
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:


PS. Just so everyone knows where I stand; smokers are not victims, they made a choice.


They made a choice when they were teenagers or children (the number of people who start smoking when they are of legal age is almost zero). Furthermore, the industry targeted them as children.

Many of the older smokers made a choice when the industry was saying smoking was good for you, even though the industry had study after study showing how deadly it was.

I don't know why people just can't quit - but I have never smoked. Does not quiting make them not a victim ? The stuff is more addictive than everything but heroin, could I escape such an addiction ? I would think so....but again I have never been there.

To put his another way. There are drug pushers pushing pot, LSD extasy and ciggarettes on school yards all across Canada. Which kid is most likely to die from what he buys ? The kid smoking the ciggarette, yet the person pushing the pot is gonna get jail time, while the person pusing the cigarettes is going to retire to a 4000 sqr foot ocean front property in Jamaica.

It amazes me after all the chemicals we have banned on slim evidence that it causes a minor problem, we allow tobacco that is clearly a mass murderer.
Cardiac





Joined: 27 Apr 2009
Posts: 130
Reputation: 12.6
Location: Mississauga

PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL, if peple used the street drugs to the same extent as they use cigarettes, then maybe we would be talking apples and apples.
They are in truth, more harmfull than tobacco.
I agree with the hypocrisy theory, it's abundant among our politicians. I love the 2nd hand smoke mantra. If it was so deadly, thinking of the millions of folks exposed to it over a multitude of decades, we'd be dropping like flies.
Oh and the guy with the goatee who runs the anti-smoking group rakes in a six figure income for the job, a $100K, for that kind of dough I'd tell you not to smoke. And cheeseburgers are next
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fiscalconservative wrote:
kwlafayette wrote:


PS. Just so everyone knows where I stand; smokers are not victims, they made a choice.


They made a choice when they were teenagers or children (the number of people who start smoking when they are of legal age is almost zero). Furthermore, the industry targeted them as children.

Many of the older smokers made a choice when the industry was saying smoking was good for you, even though the industry had study after study showing how deadly it was.

I don't know why people just can't quit - but I have never smoked. Does not quiting make them not a victim ? The stuff is more addictive than everything but heroin, could I escape such an addiction ? I would think so....but again I have never been there.

To put his another way. There are drug pushers pushing pot, LSD extasy and ciggarettes on school yards all across Canada. Which kid is most likely to die from what he buys ? The kid smoking the ciggarette, yet the person pushing the pot is gonna get jail time, while the person pusing the cigarettes is going to retire to a 4000 sqr foot ocean front property in Jamaica.

It amazes me after all the chemicals we have banned on slim evidence that it causes a minor problem, we allow tobacco that is clearly a mass murderer.
Ah, the bleating of the poor, innocent, "won't somebody please think of the children" victim. I tell you, that advertising, it is like mind control. Only full Jedi would be able to resist.

Fiscalconservative has a fever! And the only cure is more government!
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
fiscalconservative wrote:
kwlafayette wrote:


PS. Just so everyone knows where I stand; smokers are not victims, they made a choice.


They made a choice when they were teenagers or children (the number of people who start smoking when they are of legal age is almost zero). Furthermore, the industry targeted them as children.

Many of the older smokers made a choice when the industry was saying smoking was good for you, even though the industry had study after study showing how deadly it was.

I don't know why people just can't quit - but I have never smoked. Does not quiting make them not a victim ? The stuff is more addictive than everything but heroin, could I escape such an addiction ? I would think so....but again I have never been there.

To put his another way. There are drug pushers pushing pot, LSD extasy and ciggarettes on school yards all across Canada. Which kid is most likely to die from what he buys ? The kid smoking the ciggarette, yet the person pushing the pot is gonna get jail time, while the person pusing the cigarettes is going to retire to a 4000 sqr foot ocean front property in Jamaica.

It amazes me after all the chemicals we have banned on slim evidence that it causes a minor problem, we allow tobacco that is clearly a mass murderer.
Ah, the bleating of the poor, innocent, "won't somebody please think of the children" victim. I tell you, that advertising, it is like mind control. Only full Jedi would be able to resist.


Its a very basic concept in law that children do not have the same decision making capacity as adults. Assuming you have kids, lets say I walk up to one and give him a big bag of candy for 10% of his lifetime earnings. Do you think your child would be able to property evaluate that transaction ? Do you think I should be allowed to enforce that contract ? How about if your child agreed to marry a 80 yearold Afgan man for a lolly pop. Would your child be a victim then ?

How about if I told your child that what I was giving him was medicine that would make him healthier even though I knew it had a 50/50 chance of killing him ?

Although there are very very few, if you can point out someone who weighed their options and decided to start smoking when they were of legal age then, yes, they are not victims, they are idiots. The truth is the vast majority were hooked as kids.

kwlafayette wrote:

Fiscalconservative has a fever! And the only cure is more government!


Yay, another strawman. Where in the above post do I advocate more government ???
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cardiac wrote:
LOL, if peple used the street drugs to the same extent as they use cigarettes, then maybe we would be talking apples and apples.
They are in truth, more harmfull than tobacco.


You are correct that if people had a two pack a day joint habbit, it would be worse on their health (mostly because joints don't have filters). The point is nobody smokes a pack a day of weed (okay, very few people). You give a kid a pack of joints, he may smoke them, but he isn't going out to buy another pack right away. He may smoke a little on the weekend and stop when he is 25, but thats about it.
Give a kid a pack of cigarettes there is a good chance he will smoke until he dies.
Same with Extasy and LSD, they have very little in the way of addictive properties.

Back to my point though, the guy selling cigarettes has killed way more than the guy selling weed.


Cardiac wrote:

I agree with the hypocrisy theory, it's abundant among our politicians. I love the 2nd hand smoke mantra. If it was so deadly, thinking of the millions of folks exposed to it over a multitude of decades, we'd be dropping like flies.


Second hand smoke is a lot more dangerous than many of the other chemicals we have banned. I have a relative who never smoke a day in her life, but worked in a smokey restaurant and died of lung cancer (though it was a very smokey environment, not the sort of thing you would get if you were a kid upstairs and mommy was smoking in the basement


I just noticed your name....its a little ironic :-).
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