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Edmund Onward James





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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:20 am    Post subject: PAY HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS? Reply with quote

There’s an idea, for one thing to prevent street gang recruitment, motivate many, reward others, by paying the youth to go to school. High school only. All students. Minimum wage.

They’d receive a monthly cheque for attending, partaking, and behaving. Bonuses could be considered for marks and, perhaps, sports.

It would be difficult for the street thugs to entice the kids with money for bling-bling; as a matter of fact, other magnetic attractions, such as TV and video games could be curtailed. Cash is a motivator. Some of the salary might help single mothers and low income families (baby licenses wouldn’t be easy). They could save the money for universities, or trade schools, if possible. Not early retirement.

I mentioned the above to Charles “Spider” Jones of CFRB (1010 AM) Radio www.spiderjones.com and he thought the topic was worthy for a panel on his Sunday program, and would I be interested. Several times, I have been on his talk radio show. A couple of times I was on for an hour, or the full two hours, if it was about his favourite music – Rhythm & Blues and Blue-Eyed Soul. However, there are education specialists who might take this topic on; hence you could email spiderjones@rogers.com and/or ej@onwardjames.com

Spider said that the egregious gangs, predominantly black in Toronto, start the enticement and recruitment early, at public schools, handing out candy, showing off their accessories. Maybe all schools will require security guards, police, and weapons detectors, regardless. However, major gangs, and independents (who do not last long), might charge for protection to and from school. How to get rid of them is another topic.

Since we are a capitalist nation and society it is about money, the good-life, at least a better one than the 3rd world countries have to offer. A monthly pay-cheque could be a terrific motivator, other than self-esteem, because getting an education is to get jobs, or in some cases becoming entrepreneurs, business owners.

Naturally, there could be a course on bank accounts, keeping records, paying taxes, basic economy. I think it would beneficial to start early.

Of course, the funds have to come from somewhere, maybe corporate taxes to set youth on the right track, since many would end up working for them.

Indeed, there are many teenagers, likely the majority, who are self-motivated or influenced by their parents and grandparents for the joy and wisdom of learning, but it doesn’t hurt to have some pocket money.


Last edited by Edmund Onward James on Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:40 am; edited 1 time in total
marklar





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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think i'd rather see the money go into policing the gangs. Let's face it, this creates a pretty huge incentive for gang members to show up and extort students.

I do agree that it's about time we got serious about educating people about economics, personal finances and the credit bureau. But I disagree that we need to put every student on the payroll to do it.

If we want to promote employment we could roll out tax breaks for employers hiring high school students and promote more in-school job fairs and the like. Similar to how universities do with their co-op programs (e.g. Waterloo).
Edmund Onward James





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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enough with the excuse of school jobs and more brick & mortar.

This isn't just about gangs, students might need basic motivation.

When I interviewed a teacher and Vice Prinicple at a Toronto inner-city school (research for one of novels) they told me that the majority couldn't wait to get a job, especially immigrant students.

Do we benefit if they become educated mediocrally, lack of interest, and/or motivation? Perhaps if they pick up trades. And, indeed, we also require labourers but...

Paying students is a commentary suggestion. If you have better ideas, please add.
Hasdrubal





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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would never fly, why have summer jobs if they get money to attend school? And teachers would oppose this because their incomes would be effected. Also if high school students were to get payed for attending school then why not pay college students to attend post secondary studies?
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No.
Because if we are trying to sway youth away from "gang life" by competing with it by paying students, the reality is that its a battle you won't win.

So you are making min wage x 7 for your school day, and gang member X trying to recruit you is driving a 85k SUV.

Its a battle you still lose,
and I have a hard time paying students for a right that they receive in this country that is a privilege for so many other young people around the world.

Like others I would much rather see the money going into police spending on gang squads.
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Won't work. You have to want to learn. Education is a privilege, it is most certainly not a right as some people seem to think. The problem with free education is that you get what you pay for; I would expect paying teenagers to turn out even worse.

My Dad used to pay me for performance, that worked with me, but not so much for my brother.
Edmund Onward James





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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All good points. However, it hasn't been tried.

Sometimes, one has to think out of the box.

In the US Obama's clan is thinking year round school. This helps the teachers get a RAISE, or a shift work.

University students generally commit to education because of the expense and so forth.

But high school kids are at an influential stage, espcecially by peers.

Nevertheless, the topic might be worthy for a radio program. Pro & Con and alternative answers to improve the motivation.
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a fundamental principle of motivation that when you pay someone to do something it lessens their desire to do it on their own( I forget the name of it now). Thats the main reason that this sort of thing has not been tried much.
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
Won't work. You have to want to learn. Education is a privilege, it is most certainly not a right as some people seem to think.
.


I think its in our best interest to educate as many people as possible. Right now there are all sorts of people in Angola who are smarter than you (and everyone on this board) and work much harder than you. The reason your job is not in Angola is because it does not have the same pool of educated people that Canada does.

If the only people in Canada with educations were the rare teenager who paid for their own, or those whose parents were rich enough to pay for them, Canada would be at a huge economic disadvantage.
Northern Ontario Tory





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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm strongly against the idea. First of all, has anyone made an attempt to estimate the cost of this? The small figure of min. wage for students may not seem like much....... but once you determine how many high school students there are and multiply that by the number of weeks, I have no doubt that this is simply a massive amount of money. The last thing we need is another personal or corporate tax.

Additionally, I think the whole idea needs a lot more thought. Are you trying to get kids to complete high school or keep them out of gangs? I get the impression that the assumption here is that only low income kids are at risk of joining gangs or being attracted to a life of crime. I believe that may be a faulty assumption. In my experience, some of the young trouble makers were those who come from well-off families and have never had to really work for anything in their life.

What is needed most is personal and family responsibility, not more nanny-statism.
mrsocko





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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paying kids to go to school? :roll:

How about sending them to reformitory if they don't. That would be true incentive. :twisted:
Edmund Onward James





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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe in hard time for crime, especially with guns and knives. Yet, though I am conservative, derived from the word "conserve", I do not think reform schools or any other instituiton as such motivates the youth.

However, that might have worked for some in the past... I am not sure. And provincial and federal statistics are/were questionable. How about the Catholic and other religious, that had pedophiles and bisexual perverts teaching and keeping records. Gee, I wonder if their reformitories is an example.
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edmund Onward James wrote:


University students generally commit to education because of the expense and so forth.

But high school kids are at an influential stage, espcecially by peers.

Nevertheless, the topic might be worthy for a radio program. Pro & Con and alternative answers to improve the motivation.


I have to take issue with the bolded statement above.

While you are in University the fact that you just dropped 800 bucks on textbooks for your World Taxation textbooks may be a strong motivation to not have to take the class again next year when they "update" the textbook so you have to buy it again,

But what of the motivation of the high school student who needs to maintain or attain certain grades in order to get into the program they want in University?

If the point of paying students is to keep them educated and away from gangs, as I said above how is paying students minimum wage going to compete with a perceived "easy" life of crime?

I worked for part of a summer building those damn Mooses (Moose? Meese?) that were all over Toronto in what I could describe as the worst job in the worst conditions I had ever worked in my life for at the time "big money" at ten dollars and hour...cash in an envelope at the end of every 10 hour day.

After a week of that I became the most motivated student on the planet and would do nearly anything to assure that my future career was vastly different then what I had to undertake that summer.

I realized the importance of education and the long term benefits of going to University etc,

You can't force that onto students, they need to figure it out themselves.
Edmund Onward James





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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This issue has gotten some people thinking, and commnenting rationally. Good

But lets check what has been effectively accomplished and what can be improved, what the future might entail including consequences.

Many of on this forum are of a different time. My high school teenage years was of major bonding. I still have high school friends but not many from university. Until much later. Strange.

And, like others I was cheap labour while still in school. For my father for one thing.

I don't have the answer for the problems that truly exist today for teenagers. And I often wonder whether we have set the right examples? Indeed, in many ways we have, as I observe when I wander through a campus or see a kid learning a trade. One of my friend's kids didn't go to college, instead he became a carpenter, and the joy for my bud was when his kid renovated his old house.

A terrific job.

If something I suggest smacks of socialism, I question myself and any sources.

But why do we have drop outs and increasing crime, even younger than teenagehood?

I believe in hard time for crime, especially with guns and knives. Yet, though I am conservative, derived from the word "conserve", I do not think reform schools or any other instituiton as such motivates the youth to continue with higher learning or trades, when there other options.

Maybe tough love, or tutoring, might have worked for some in the past... I am not sure if the statistics are overwhelming. Frankly, provincial and federal statistics are/were questionable. How about the Catholic and other religious, that had pedophiles and bisexual perverts teaching and keeping records. Gee, I wonder if their reformitories was an example.

However, grades might be a bonus, but the issue was about attendance, behaviour, attention, and perhaps bonuses for marks.

Of course, this is a stretch, but at least it's an idea worthy of comment rather than being dismissed or vehemently critized without sound suggestions.

I appreciate input and wisdom.
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even if you find a way to assure a child attends school from 830 - 330 every day, I think the problem lays in that period of time from 331PM - 829AM.

The most interesting difference between my generation and the current one is the growth of the latch-key children out there.

Walking home alone, getting into the house alone, and being unsupervised for hours on end.

While we as Canadians are in the meaty part of the average when it comes to average hours worked in a week, we rank amongst the highest for commuting times which means that with every passing year as a few minutes get tacked onto mom and dads commute is a few more minutes they are not spending with junior.

How many of us did things we knew we were not suppose to when our parents were not home? He it walk in the house with our shoes on, watch the tv shows we were not suppose to or have that sketchy Billy from down the street over even though mom has said you were not allowed to play with him?

We keep laying the blame everywhere else.

Its violent video games, its violent movies, its the school system, its bad kids within the school system,

Perhaps, but why isn't anyone supervising the viewing of these movies or the playing of these games? Why are parents not asking questions when their 13 year old is hanging out with a 16 year old driving a Cadillac SUV?

I find the biggest difference from then to now is the amount of time children are totally unsupervised by their parents now, as opposed to then.
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