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FF_Canuck





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 3360
Reputation: 73.4
votes: 17
Location: Southern Alberta

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Libertas wrote:
Which planet do you live on?

Same one I'm on, pretty sure... doctors do indeed get told how many surgeries they are allowed to perform in a given period, and when they run out of their quota, they go on holidays. Ask any surgeon working in our public system. That's just on example of what Craig's talking about.

Our health care for 'quality of life' procedures and treatments is rationed. It is an automatic effect of a single payer, government monopoly system. There are at least 8 other jurisdictions in the world that deliver universal healthcare without rationing, aka wait times, because their citizens do no have some childish nationalist belief in a government program as flawless and beyond criticism or reform.

The Americans should be having a debate about their healthcare, and they should be trying to make changes. The Obama administration has seriously bungled the effort by trying to ram through legislation that is vague and poorly understood, leaving only his and his allies previous statements as evidence of their goals. Right now, they seem to be attempting an odd hybrid of their current system with the goal of transitioning to a monster that employs the worst practices of the Canadian and British systems.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
Reputation: 156.2Reputation: 156.2
votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Libertas wrote:

That isn't how it works. If a patient requires a medical service or urgent care the cost will be paid for by the government regardless of the budget.

Yeah, that is why no one waits for any treatment at all in Canada right? Because we have enough doctors, and enough hospitals, and enough beds, and enough money to give everyone all the health care they want the moment they want it.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/.....ml?showall

Yeah, Obama would never pull the plug on anyone. He is just a humble man on a mission from God.

PS. Scratch that, your partners (partner implies equality, awful lot of hubris there for an honest politician from Chicago) do not send you on missions....
Libertas





Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 358
Reputation: 14.6
votes: 6
Location: Medicine Hat, AB

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yeah, that is why no one waits for any treatment at all in Canada right? Because we have enough doctors, and enough hospitals, and enough beds, and enough money to give everyone all the health care they want the moment they want it.


If someone just got hit by a drunk driver and is dying out on the street it's usually a higher priority than a hip replacement. If we ran the police department the same way you want healthcare run the priority cases would always be on those willing to pay more, so the billionaire who just got his radio stolen will be a higher priority than a rape victim from the ghetto.

If you didn't become a member of the Sarah Palin Heavens Gate club you wouldn't have to defend every ignorant thing she says.

Quote:
Right now, they seem to be attempting an odd hybrid of their current system with the goal of transitioning to a monster that employs the worst practices of the Canadian and British systems.


That isn't in the bill. It wouldn't even garauntee universal healthcare coverage, all it would do is provide a public option for those who didn't have insurance.
fiscalconservative





Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Posts: 1043
Reputation: 49.9Reputation: 49.9Reputation: 49.9Reputation: 49.9Reputation: 49.9
votes: 6

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
fiscalconservative wrote:
Nobody really drafts their own health plan, its too complicated.


Nobody seemed to mind blaming Bush for those details.

The bottom line here is that he didn't even run on the health platform. It wasn't until after he was elected that he even started discussing it


That is 100% false. Go google something like "health care 2008 obama". It was a major part of his platform.
It did not garner a huge amount of news attention because the Republicans focused most of their attacks in other areas (Billy Ayers and such).
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
Reputation: 156.2Reputation: 156.2
votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Libertas wrote:
Quote:
Yeah, that is why no one waits for any treatment at all in Canada right? Because we have enough doctors, and enough hospitals, and enough beds, and enough money to give everyone all the health care they want the moment they want it.


If someone just got hit by a drunk driver and is dying out on the street it's usually a higher priority than a hip replacement. If we ran the police department the same way you want healthcare run the priority cases would always be on those willing to pay more, so the billionaire who just got his radio stolen will be a higher priority than a rape victim from the ghetto.

If you didn't become a member of the Sarah Palin Heavens Gate club you wouldn't have to defend every ignorant thing she says.

Quote:
Right now, they seem to be attempting an odd hybrid of their current system with the goal of transitioning to a monster that employs the worst practices of the Canadian and British systems.


That isn't in the bill. It wouldn't even garauntee universal healthcare coverage, all it would do is provide a public option for those who didn't have insurance.

Sing it with me!
Troll, troll, troll.
If he had 1000 straw men
And 50,000 false analogies,
He would use them all at once!

Is there anyone, who does not ignore reality, and has something intelligent to say? This guy clearly does not remember Chaoulli v. Quebec. I will give you a bit of a refresher, not that it will do any good. I expect the logical fallacies to keep flying.

"Access to a waiting list is not access to health care." That is a direct quote from the majority ruling of the supreme court of Canada.

Lets take your argument and run with it shall we? George Zeliotis waited, in Quebec, for a hip replacement for over 2 years. Sure must have been a lot of car accidents, eh? Eh?
Libertas





Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 358
Reputation: 14.6
votes: 6
Location: Medicine Hat, AB

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Sing it with me!
Troll, troll, troll.
If he had 1000 straw men
And 50,000 false analogies,
He would use them all at once!


By strawmen, what kwa is referring to is the use of facts to show that every developed nation with public funding for healthcare has not resulted in a widescale euthanasia program to kill off senior citizens and the disabled.

But I can't remember the days when the Tommy Douglas Youth would go through senior citizens homes and kill off anyone over the age of 55.

I believe you were the one who made the argument that Obama was going to pull the plug on Grandma but save the life of Charles Manson. Apparently the DNC was involved in the Tate killings.

Quote:
Is there anyone, who does not ignore reality, and has something intelligent to say?


Is there anyone who doesn't blindly believe everything a half-brained dimwit with bigger tits than brains says? [my hand up]

Quote:
This guy clearly does not remember Chaoulli v. Quebec. I will give you a bit of a refresher, not that it will do any good. I expect the logical fallacies to keep flying.


It would help if you knew what a logical fallacy was. Much like stating in your original post that Obama is more concerned about saving the life of Charles Manson by killing off Grandma. Or for that matter claiming that it was the Democrats who were behind the death of Terri Schiavo, even though it was the judiciary. But facts don't matter.

Quote:
"Access to a waiting list is not access to health care." That is a direct quote from the majority ruling of the supreme court of Canada.


Guess what, they simply stated that Canadian's should be allowed access to private insurance. It has no bearing on what services the government can provide, as most universal healthcare systems have a mix of public/private services. Even with a two-tier healthcare system we would have a far more "socialist" regime than the Americans where crony capitalism is king.

Quote:
Lets take your argument and run with it shall we? George Zeliotis waited, in Quebec, for a hip replacement for over 2 years. Sure must have been a lot of car accidents, eh? Eh?


I was merely pointing out that rationing is in fact done as it is with any system. The difference is that it's done based on need, so those who require urgent care will of course get access sooner.

You're argument, which was in favour of Sarah Palin's idiotic remarks is that allowing a public option to compete with private insurers will result in "Grandma's" death was absurd. The purpose of the bill was to increase healthcare coverage, something that would result in fewer deaths and bankruptcies which are real concerns as compared to your paranoid delusions.
fiscalconservative





Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Posts: 1043
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votes: 6

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think nothing says more about the current American health system than the fact it is being defended by outrageous lies, fake grassroots organizations and mobs trying to stifle debate.

I wonder how many more claims are going to be denied to make up for the money spend to bus angry seniors arround ?
crazymamma





Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 1011
Reputation: 71.8
votes: 14
Location: The kitchen

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look libercus,

I don't know about you but I always thought this is supposed to be a family friendly forum.

If you can't make your point with out calling some one out for expressing his own semen in the presence of a feisty intelligent, beautiful woman who takes no crap's photo or make derogatory remarks about a woman's mammary glands then you are not even a tenth as intelligent as I think you are, let alone 1 100/th as intelligent as you think you are.
Libertas





Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 358
Reputation: 14.6
votes: 6
Location: Medicine Hat, AB

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll reference any part of the human anatomy I wish.

I'll rephrase it, Sarah Palin has larger udders than brains, and to compare her arguments to excrement would be unfair as manure is somewhat beneficial to society.
crazymamma





Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 1011
Reputation: 71.8
votes: 14
Location: The kitchen

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Libercus,

my hamster has teats larger then some folk's brains. Whats your point except that Ms. Palin intimadates you and you need to make her manageble in your mind by reducing her to a sexual object that can be ridiculed and denegrated.
Libertas





Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 358
Reputation: 14.6
votes: 6
Location: Medicine Hat, AB

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Whats your point except that Ms. Palin intimadates you and]you need to make her manageble in your mind by reducing her to a sexual object that can be ridiculed and denegrated.


Her mouth makes her manageable. She's self-destructing all by herself, just look at her approval ratings after she abandoned Alaska.

I don't dislike Sarah Palin because she's attractive, I dislike her because she's vapid and represents the nutter right.

Any person who thinks a living will is the equivalent to the government killing off th elderly and handicapped is an idiot.
crazymamma





Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 1011
Reputation: 71.8
votes: 14
Location: The kitchen

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never once considered her attractiveness as being the problem for you.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
Reputation: 156.2Reputation: 156.2
votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Um, there is no point crazymamma. Hating Sarah Palin has nothing to do with his brain, it is an article of his religious faith; liberalism. The high priests of liberalism have declared a fatwah against Sarah Palin, and all true believers must hate her, it is just that simple.

Might as well stop wasting our time, and simply get back to the issue at hand.
Libertas





Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 358
Reputation: 14.6
votes: 6
Location: Medicine Hat, AB

PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If a liberal is now to be considered anyone who considers intelligence to be of higher virtue than ignorance you can call me a liberal. Hell, you can even call me an elitist.

Kwa, are you angry that I pointed out death panels don't exist?

Perhaps asking for facts and evidence is another attribute of being part of the "liberal religion."
fiscalconservative





Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Posts: 1043
Reputation: 49.9Reputation: 49.9Reputation: 49.9Reputation: 49.9Reputation: 49.9
votes: 6

PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
Um, there is no point crazymamma. Hating Sarah Palin has nothing to do with his brain, it is an article of his religious faith; liberalism. The high priests of liberalism have declared a fatwah against Sarah Palin, and all true believers must hate her, it is just that simple.

Might as well stop wasting our time, and simply get back to the issue at hand.


The fact that you again ignore is most of the nasty comments about Palin has come from consevative camp. The National Review for example. Up until recently the Democrats have worked under the "can't hit a gurl" rule and not said much at all. They are still hoping for their wet dream of seeing Palin on the 2012 ticket. Palin's numbers right now area almost the same as Qualye's were after he cost the first Bush the election. How did Qualye's POTUS bid turn out ?
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