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CPP





Joined: 04 Feb 2009
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Location: Too close to Quebec

PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
CPP wrote:
Well, I hope your right but one thing I have learned fighting many elections as a (past) provincial conservative riding president, never underestimate the lieberals.
Ontarians presently prefer policies similar to what Brampton Billy Davis offered and not those of Mikey (download) Harris.
If Tories lose sight of this, then we may as well crown Dalton (teflon) McGuinty, Premier for life.

The government of Bill Davis was dealing with a different time and economy than that of Mike Harris but there were some interesting similarities. For instance, Davis introduced regional governments to Durham, Hamilton-Wentworth, Haldimand-Norfolk, and Waterloo... unpopular at the time but, again, none of these groups reverted to individual municipalities.

There was very little political cooperation between Bill Davis and the leader of the feds at the time, Joe Clark... and that hasn't changed. Both Harris and Davis helped to broker the deal which brought the Alliance and the Progressive Conservatives together... and Joe Clark roundly condemned the reunified right...

John Tory offered Ontario policies which were like what Joe Clark offered Canada... with similar non-results... so I would suggest Ontario is much better off having someone at the right end of the conservative spectrum than the left.

-Mac


Good points Mac but the problem is to convince Ontarians that they would be better off on the right instead of the left. And if Hudak hopes to ride into office on Harris's coat-tail, he may have a problem and thats why I suggest he holds 'town-hall' type meetings to determine what Ontarians want.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
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Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CPP wrote:
The problem Mac, is to convince Ontarians that they would be better off on the right instead of the left. And if Hudak hopes to ride into office on Harris's coat-tail, he may have a problem and thats why I suggest he holds 'town-hall' type meetings to determine what Ontarians want.

Does Hudak want to ride on Harris' coattails or present his own vision? If it's the latter, then Hudak needs to create something more than "I don't like what McGuinty has offer" that we've seen so far.

Townhall meetings bring out the local yahoos of all descriptions... a decent venue to float policy balloons but I would suggest the townhall meetings are the second set, not the first one.

How about holding a policy convention and bring in all of the folks from the riding associations. There is enough diversity in the riding associations to be fairly representative of the province's population. Yes, the left will be under-represented but I can live that that. Once they've put together a decent policy framework, then bring that to the townhall meetings. Let the yahoos poke holes in the balloons and see what pops up.

-Mac
teenagetory





Joined: 08 Dec 2008
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Location: Halifax

PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with CPP on the townhall point. One of the points that Tom Flanagan made in his book; Harper's Team, is that one has to sell policies based on what the people want done, not just derive one's policies from ones ideology like it's a math problem.

Things like the GST cut, are visible and give the public what they want (or in this case cut up something they dislike), while still maintaining a Conservative governing style. Making some promises about cutting a program(s) that the public perceives as either unnecassary or over-funded, and cutting taxes will make Team Hudak both electable and right of centre
CPP





Joined: 04 Feb 2009
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Location: Too close to Quebec

PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

teenagetory wrote:
I agree with CPP on the townhall point. One of the points that Tom Flanagan made in his book; Harper's Team, is that one has to sell policies based on what the people want done, not just derive one's policies from ones ideology like it's a math problem.

Things like the GST cut, are visible and give the public what they want (or in this case cut up something they dislike), while still maintaining a Conservative governing style. Making some promises about cutting a program(s) that the public perceives as either unnecassary or over-funded, and cutting taxes will make Team Hudak both electable and right of centre


Well said, teenagetory :!: If there were more Conservatives like yourself, we might have a crack at knocking down the present 'teflon' Premier. Its ironic but Premier McGuinty has kept many of Harris's policies in place such as closing hospitals like in Fort Erie and has uploaded very few former provincial responsibilities like highway maintenance in my neck of the woods; lack of government oversight on propane facilities like the Sunrise explosion in Toronto and lack of government oversight in private nursing homes like the one in Orillia where four residents died in an unncessary fire.
But I digress.
DavidK





Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1520
Reputation: 68.5
votes: 5
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CPP wrote:
teenagetory wrote:
I agree with CPP on the townhall point. One of the points that Tom Flanagan made in his book; Harper's Team, is that one has to sell policies based on what the people want done, not just derive one's policies from ones ideology like it's a math problem.

Things like the GST cut, are visible and give the public what they want (or in this case cut up something they dislike), while still maintaining a Conservative governing style. Making some promises about cutting a program(s) that the public perceives as either unnecassary or over-funded, and cutting taxes will make Team Hudak both electable and right of centre


Well said, teenagetory :!: If there were more Conservatives like yourself, we might have a crack at knocking down the present 'teflon' Premier. Its ironic but Premier McGuinty has kept many of Harris's policies in place such as closing hospitals like in Fort Erie and has uploaded very few former provincial responsibilities like highway maintenance in my neck of the woods; lack of government oversight on propane facilities like the Sunrise explosion in Toronto and lack of government oversight in private nursing homes like the one in Orillia where four residents died in an unncessary fire.
But I digress.


Liberals always take Conservative policy post Conservative governments. Ever ask yourself why that is? :?:
CPP





Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 244
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votes: 1
Location: Too close to Quebec

PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DavidK wrote:
CPP wrote:
teenagetory wrote:
I agree with CPP on the townhall point. One of the points that Tom Flanagan made in his book; Harper's Team, is that one has to sell policies based on what the people want done, not just derive one's policies from ones ideology like it's a math problem.

Things like the GST cut, are visible and give the public what they want (or in this case cut up something they dislike), while still maintaining a Conservative governing style. Making some promises about cutting a program(s) that the public perceives as either unnecassary or over-funded, and cutting taxes will make Team Hudak both electable and right of centre


Well said, teenagetory :!: If there were more Conservatives like yourself, we might have a crack at knocking down the present 'teflon' Premier. Its ironic but Premier McGuinty has kept many of Harris's policies in place such as closing hospitals like in Fort Erie and has uploaded very few former provincial responsibilities like highway maintenance in my neck of the woods; lack of government oversight on propane facilities like the Sunrise explosion in Toronto and lack of government oversight in private nursing homes like the one in Orillia where four residents died in an unncessary fire.
But I digress.


Liberals always take Conservative policy post Conservative governments. Ever ask yourself why that is? :?:


Another good point but some Ontarians may feel that we already have a right of centre government so why change. Therefore, Hudak is going to have a tough selling job and thats why 'town-hall' type meetings are so important to determine what Ontarians want and what the Tories have to offer before its too late. Lets learn from the disasterous John Tory campaign, who in my opinion was a Tory in name only. A decent guy but not a great politician.
chrisreid





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CPP wrote:

Another good point but some Ontarians may feel that we already have a right of centre government so why change. Therefore, Hudak is going to have a tough selling job and thats why 'town-hall' type meetings are so important to determine what Ontarians want and what the Tories have to offer before its too late. Lets learn from the disasterous John Tory campaign, who in my opinion was a Tory in name only. A decent guy but not a great politician.


Non-political people don't know or care about "left" or "right"...they vote for parties that offer solutions to the problems of the day. Don't confuse what the problems are with the solutions. There are two kinds of solutions to problems, having a nanny state government, or having free market solutions. History has born out that free market solutions work better than government. That is not ideological, that is simply looking at history. Conservatism is by its very nature, non-ideological.

The reason why left-wing solutions to problems gain traction isn't because voters are left-wing, it's because the left has done the most effective job at selling their solutions CPP. Conservatives need to stop apologizing for their solutions, and sell them. That means understanding the facts, then selling the solution to voters by tapping into their emotions.

The emotional argument in support of free-market healthcare, is that people are dying needlessly in government run hospitals that ration care. The sales pitch to the voter would be, who do you think cares more about your sick child, you or a bureaucrat?
The whole government healthcare system is based on trying to contain costs to the government, not delivering the best healthcare in the most efficient manner. That can only happen under free market competition for people's healthcare dollars.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
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Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chrisreid wrote:
Non-political people don't know or care about "left" or "right"...they vote for parties that offer solutions to the problems of the day. Don't confuse what the problems are with the solutions. There are two kinds of solutions to problems, having a nanny state government, or having free market solutions. History has born out that free market solutions work better than government. That is not ideological, that is simply looking at history. Conservatism is by its very nature, non-ideological.

The reason why left-wing solutions to problems gain traction isn't because voters are left-wing, it's because the left has done the most effective job at selling their solutions CPP. Conservatives need to stop apologizing for their solutions, and sell them. That means understanding the facts, then selling the solution to voters by tapping into their emotions.

The emotional argument in support of free-market healthcare, is that people are dying needlessly in government run hospitals that ration care. The sales pitch to the voter would be, who do you think cares more about your sick child, you or a bureaucrat?
The whole government healthcare system is based on trying to contain costs to the government, not delivering the best healthcare in the most efficient manner. That can only happen under free market competition for people's healthcare dollars.

Good points, Chris. Selling conservative policies has always been difficult because there are so many dissenting voices within the conservative movement. For every voice presenting ideas one way, there are two others shouting for attention to their way...

-Mac
chrisreid





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 182
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votes: 5
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:

Good points, Chris. Selling conservative policies has always been difficult because there are so many dissenting voices within the conservative movement. For every voice presenting ideas one way, there are two others shouting for attention to their way...

-Mac


I'm not naive, the Liberals will always be finding ways to smear conservatives, that shouldn't be a suprise or shock to anyone. I'd prefer to tackle it head on. Because if we don't do it, no one else will..the media never will support conservative principles, certainly not politicians, since politicians can only echo what they feel gets them elected. It's why I disagree with CPP talking about what's electable. I'm interested in making conservative principles electable, not selling out principles to get elected. I want a politician to be able to get elected by saying publicly "I will do everything to protect the free marketplace from the threat of government manipulation".
While we can all disagree on policy, we should all be wanting to see the country move to the right, not our "conservative" politicians moving to the left to maintain power.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
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votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chrisreid wrote:
While we can all disagree on policy, we should all be wanting to see the country move to the right, not our "conservative" politicians moving to the left to maintain power.

Therein lies the problem. Many of the Red Tory variety of conservatives are delighted with the current direction rather than being concerned... :?

-Mac
CPP





Joined: 04 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
chrisreid wrote:
While we can all disagree on policy, we should all be wanting to see the country move to the right, not our "conservative" politicians moving to the left to maintain power.

Therein lies the problem. Many of the Red Tory variety of conservatives are delighted with the current direction rather than being concerned... :?

-Mac


Obviously there is a serious problem here in Ontario in that Ontarians are not exercising their right to vote as I believe about 50% showed up during the last provincial election.

If the Ontario Tories dont get their act together and find out what Ontarians expect from their government and act on that, then we will be stuck with the right leaning 'teflon' Premier Dalton McSlippery who obviously loves many of Harris's policies.


There are many fence sitters out there waiting to be convinced as who to vote for. We shouldnt be wasting our time talking to the 'converted' who will always vote to the right, no matter what.
Have we not learned anything from the previous two provincial elections :?:
Mac





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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CPP wrote:
Obviously there is a serious problem here in Ontario in that Ontarians are not exercising their right to vote as I believe about 50% showed up during the last provincial election.

If the Ontario Tories dont get their act together and find out what Ontarians expect from their government and act on that, then we will be stuck with the right leaning 'teflon' Premier Dalton McSlippery who obviously loves many of Harris's policies.


There are many fence sitters out there waiting to be convinced as who to vote for. We shouldnt be wasting our time talking to the 'converted' who will always vote to the right, no matter what.
Have we not learned anything from the previous two provincial elections :?:

Voter apathy has been a problem for decades. I suspect it's less about people waiting to be convinced and more about people becoming cynical about the chances of affecting change. This was especially true when John Tory was promising to out-liberal the Liberals.

Chris is right... the way to engage voters is to sell conservative policies and then follow through!!

-Mac
potan





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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is CPP suggesting that Dalton McGuinty is right leaning?
CPP





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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:56 pm    Post subject: When the left is right and the right is left Reply with quote

potan wrote:
Is CPP suggesting that Dalton McGuinty is right leaning?


Yes, in some areas Premier McSlippery is right leaning, like keeping most of Mikey's downloading policies in place, continues to close hospitals, hasnt deamalgamate Toronto & Ottawa and just loves HM PM Harper for his very generous auto bailouts and infrastructure programs plus allows some of the private sector to police themselves like Propane Yards (remember the Toronto Sunrise explosion) and then there is his P3 private/public building of Ontario Hospitals (which is a way over budget).
Geez, come to think about, Harper is turning to the left of the political spectrum putting the country further into debt with his generous financial bailouts. Something one would expect the federal lieberals to do like under Trudeau and his thugs.
Its getting harder and harder to tell who is from what party :roll:
chrisreid





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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:50 pm    Post subject: Re: When the left is right and the right is left Reply with quote

CPP wrote:

Yes, in some areas Premier McSlippery is right leaning, like keeping most of Mikey's downloading policies in place, continues to close hospitals, hasnt deamalgamate Toronto & Ottawa and just loves HM PM Harper for his very generous auto bailouts and infrastructure programs plus allows some of the private sector to police themselves like Propane Yards (remember the Toronto Sunrise explosion) and then there is his P3 private/public building of Ontario Hospitals (which is a way over budget).
Geez, come to think about, Harper is turning to the left of the political spectrum putting the country further into debt with his generous financial bailouts. Something one would expect the federal lieberals to do like under Trudeau and his thugs.
Its getting harder and harder to tell who is from what party :roll:


I've very confused on your position CPP, you are worrying about Tim Hudak going too far to the "right", because you claim Mike Harris' policies were bad. But then you refute your own statement by using the Liberals as an example, since they have left virtually all of Mike Harris' policies in place. The only two policies I can remember the Liberals rescinding are tax credits for parents than send their children to private schools, and re-regulating electricity prices.

The whole point of the party base is to ensure the party elites serve its members, and to advocate to the public conservative policy positions. Once again, you ask public opinion polls to find out the issues people care about, not the solutions, because the public is no informed about the solutions. It's up to people in the party from the grassroots up to the elite to stand up and provide conservative SOLUTIONS to problems.
There are conservative solutions to healthcare, poverty, education, and they have proven to work where implemented. Having school vouchers so poor families can afford to send their children to private schools, has been hugely successful in the U.S. where it has been applied. Consumer-driven healthcare (tax free savings accounts for healthcare, and tax deductions on health insurance, and out of pocket expenses) has been very popular in the U.S..

We should not be affraid of taking on Liberals on their own turf - healthcare, education, environment, as they have been miserable failures on these issues, whilst claiming to be the party that cares the most.
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Tim Hudak: The New Leader of the Ontario PC Party

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