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Craig
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Joined: 29 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fiscalconservative wrote:
Sex prison ? Good luck :-)


No - baby killing prison. And it would not be a fun place.

Quote:
I understand your motiviations for fighting abortion, but it is a battle you can never win. Even if every state and province banned abortion, there is still Mexico.


I'm willing to bet that if people had to go to Mexico to get an abortion you would see a sharp drop in abortions - probably save 100,000 lives in year one.

Quote:
laws will not work


1. It is a matter of principle. Killing living babies should be illegal regardless of how effective it is.

2. If a single baby's life is saved out of 100,000 killings then it is worth it.

3. I'm willing to bet 95,000 abortions will be prevented via live births and people NOT GETTING PREGNANT IN THE FIRST PLACE if doctors who perform abortions were sentenced to twenty years.

Quote:
If you really want to stop abortion, your best bet is to focus on preventing unwanted pregnancies.


I bet people might think long and hard about GETTING PREGNANT if abortion wasn't an option. In fact, people would be more likely to use contraceptions if abortion wasn't considered one of them.
Craig
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fiscalconservative wrote:

I understand your motiviations for fighting abortion, but it is a battle you can never win. Even if every state and province banned abortion, there is still Mexico.


We're never going to stop murder. People will go to Mexico to commit murder - just look at Arturo Gatti - so I guess we should legalize murder too?
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:


I'm willing to bet that if people had to go to Mexico to get an abortion you would see a sharp drop in abortions - probably save 100,000 lives in year one.


I would doubt it. Faced with a life time of having a child you don't want, plane fare to Mexico isn't that much. There would also probably be people helping foot the bill



Quote:


1. It is a matter of principle. Killing living babies should be illegal regardless of how effective it is.

2. If a single baby's life is saved out of 100,000 killings then it is worth it.

3. I'm willing to bet 95,000 abortions will be prevented via live births and people NOT GETTING PREGNANT IN THE FIRST PLACE if doctors who perform abortions were sentenced to twenty years.



I understand your point, since in your view abortion = murder. But to apply this to the availability of brith control and education, many social conservatives don't seem to apply the same logic. If we carpet bombed down town Toronto with condoms, it would likely reduce (if even by 1) the number of abortions, yet there are certain social conservatives whose heads woud explode if I made such a suggestion.


Quote:

I bet people might think long and hard about GETTING PREGNANT if abortion wasn't an option. In fact, people would be more likely to use contraceptions if abortion wasn't considered one of them.


People don't think about sex. Since sex that gets you pregnant is by defitnition unprotected sex, people have had to think long and hard about getting AIDS, since surviving it was not an option. They chose to have unprotected sex anyway. I don't know about you, but I would pick pregnancy over AIDS any day
Craig
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fiscalconservative wrote:
I would doubt it. Faced with a life time of having a child you don't want, plane fare to Mexico isn't that much. There would also probably be people helping foot the bill


You are only looking at it from the perspective of people that already are pregnant. If you had to shell out $10,000 for a trip to Mexico and to pay the doctor then you might be a little more careful not to get pregnant in the first place.
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
fiscalconservative wrote:
I would doubt it. Faced with a life time of having a child you don't want, plane fare to Mexico isn't that much. There would also probably be people helping foot the bill


You are only looking at it from the perspective of people that already are pregnant. If you had to shell out $10,000 for a trip to Mexico and to pay the doctor then you might be a little more careful not to get pregnant in the first place.


You might, but then again, people don't seem to think logically when it comes to sex Nobody sits down, writes a list of positive and negatives, talks it over with their friends etc. AIDS and herpes are a lot scarrier than paying $10 000 to go to Mexico, yet people still make foolish decisions.

I guess the underling question here is do people use abortion as a substitute for birth control. I am sure some do, but I don't think its many. If I was a woman and had the choice between a condom, the pill or invasive surgery, I know which one I would choose.
Thats now to say there aren't some, but I think they would be rather rare.
darkstorme





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
I'm willing to bet that if people had to go to Mexico to get an abortion you would see a sharp drop in abortions - probably save 100,000 lives in year one.


The fact of the matter is, even when abortion was illegal, people did it. The difference was, the women often died as well. Even if you're not a medical practitioner, there are lots of ways to induce miscarriage. Various toxins, suitably diluted, will do the trick - though they may cause permanent damage, women still found them preferable to carrying a pregnancy to term.

The Hippocratic Oath's wording notwithstanding, Hippocrates himself wrote of methods to induce the termination of an unwanted pregnancy - either through abdominal trauma or various body-jolting exercises to be performed daily by the pregnant woman.

As for cost - the average cost of back alley (and unsafe) abortion in England in the 1800s (when and where it was illegal) was 5% of the annual income of a middle-class family. That sounds like it would line up pretty neatly with a trip to Mexico - the difference being that in Mexico, the abortion clinic would be highly unlikely to do any damage to the woman in performing the operation. So yes, people paid it, and yes, people would pay it.

Worse still are those who wouldn't be able to afford it and would self-abort. The coat hangers and knitting needles are, unfortunately, not yet forgotten... and the damage done by those practices is horrible as well. Or, worst of all, those who can't bring themselves to abort, deliver in secret, and abandon the child. There are stories every year about this; and this is when abortions are (relatively) easy to procure. It would only get worse.

If you want to prevent abortions, you have to remove the need for abortions. And since you're not going to get people to stop having sex (if the church couldn't do it, you certainly can't), contraception and education are your weapons.
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

darkstorme wrote:


Worse still are those who wouldn't be able to afford it and would self-abort. The coat hangers and knitting needles are, unfortunately, not yet forgotten... and the damage done by those practices is horrible as well. Or, worst of all, those who can't bring themselves to abort, deliver in secret, and abandon the child. There are stories every year about this; and this is when abortions are (relatively) easy to procure. It would only get worse..


This being the age of the internet, I suspect you would find all sorts of advice online. Some jerk might even post a you tube video.
darkstorme





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fiscalconservative wrote:

This being the age of the internet, I suspect you would find all sorts of advice online. Some jerk might even post a you tube video.


I imagine such a video would violate YouTube's ToS, but certainly there are other video sites that might carry such a video.

As for advice on the internet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-induced_abortion. But it's not as if you even have to look there for the physical methods. It's fairly instinctive.

Abortifacients, especially "herbal remedies" like Pennyroyal, however, were widely disseminated even before the Age of the Internet. I imagine it would be trivially easy for someone to look up such remedies today. The fact that most ingested abortifacients that are effective beyond the first few days after conception (ie. Plan B's territory) can cause permanent liver or uterine damage is secondary for those who feel that a stigma associated with abortion prevents them from attending a clinic where they can be treated properly.

Again, to the OP and others, if you want to prevent abortions, prevent pregnancies by making contraceptives widely available and promoting broad-spectrum sex education. Making abortions less readily available or adopting legislation against them will only drive the women who seek them underground, to more dangerous alternatives.
Ruben Kincaid





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick—age/sex check!

Everyone sporting dangling set of genitals who is fighting over what women should and shouldn't do with their bodies in this thread really ought to give their heads a shake.
RuralandRight





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ruben Kincaid wrote:
Quick—age/sex check!

Everyone sporting dangling set of genitals who is fighting over what women should and shouldn't do with their bodies in this thread really ought to give their heads a shake.


Tell me oh trollish one ...


What if my wife wants to have her leg cut off ?
darkstorme





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ruben Kincaid wrote:
Everyone sporting dangling set of genitals who is fighting over what women should and shouldn't do with their bodies in this thread really ought to give their heads a shake.


Please, point to one of my posts where I suggest something women should/shouldn't do? I'm in favour of women having the ability to choose what they wish to do with their bodies - and having choices open that don't result in permanent injury or death.

Really, there's only one side of this argument that is advocating delineating what women should or should not do.
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ruben Kincaid wrote:
Quick—age/sex check!

Everyone sporting dangling set of genitals who is fighting over what women should and shouldn't do with their bodies in this thread really ought to give their heads a shake.


Okay, how about aborting a todler because someone just lost their boyfriend and need to find a job. Should everyone with "dangling genitals" stay out of that debate too ? No, because to you (likely) think a child gets rights at birth. If you feel a child gets rights at conception (Craig's view) then it is totally logical to protect that childs rights. Despite the rather colourful legs argument, Craig is not advocating telling what women to do, he is advocating protecting what he feels is a human being.

BTW, if your whole point in being here is to piss people off, you need to give your head a shake.
Craig
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ruben Kincaid wrote:
what women should and shouldn't do with their bodies in this thread really ought to give their heads a shake.


I couldn't give a shit what a woman does with HER body. I care about the body that she selfishly created inside her that through no fault of its own is going to be brutally massacred.
Craig
Site Admin




Joined: 29 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

darkstorme wrote:
The difference was, the women often died as well


I call that "expedited death penalty" - no better deterrent!

Quote:
Even if you're not a medical practitioner, there are lots of ways to induce miscarriage. Various toxins, suitably diluted, will do the trick - though they may cause permanent damage, women still found them preferable to carrying a pregnancy to term.


I don't care about the practicalities. Killing an innocent baby should be illegal - period. There are still many ways to commit murder even though it is illegal - does that mean that murder should be legalized?

Quote:
So yes, people paid it, and yes, people would pay it.


At least I'm not paying for it.

Quote:
Worse still are those who wouldn't be able to afford it and would self-abort. The coat hangers and knitting needles are, unfortunately, not yet forgotten... and the damage done by those practices is horrible as well.


Not horrible enough.

Quote:
Or, worst of all, those who can't bring themselves to abort, deliver in secret, and abandon the child.


But the child is alive right? I bet it is happy about that!
Ruben Kincaid





Joined: 02 Dec 2008
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Location: Edmonton

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RuralandRight wrote:

What if my wife wants to have her leg cut off ?


File for divorce?

darkstorme wrote:

Please, point to one of my posts where I suggest something women should/shouldn't do?


If you have danglers and weren't advocating for a lack of choice, then you don't fit into the head shakers. We cool?

fiscalconservative wrote:

BTW, if your whole point in being here is to piss people off, you need to give your head a shake.


I like reading your website. You guys are fun.

Craig wrote:

I couldn't give a shit what a woman does with HER body. I care about the body that she selfishly created inside her that through no fault of its own is going to be brutally massacred.


Oh Craig, my favourite. You can't match your argument to your premise, and I LOVE the colourful language!
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