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Craig
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 12:33 pm    Post subject: Muslims destroying Greek society? Reply with quote

But it is only the extremists right :roll:

Quote:
Dozens of cars have been smashed, 14 people injured and 46 arrested in riots by Muslim migrants over the alleged defacing of a Koran by a policeman.

Police fired tear gas and stun grenades at hundreds of protesters outside Parliament in the city centre.

Police said they would investigate the allegation that an officer tore up an Iraqi migrant's Koran while checking his identity papers in Athens last week. "But this isolated incident cannot justify these acts of violence," said Interior Minister Christos Markoyiannakis.

Waves of illegal immigration in recent years have led to an influx of Muslims, mostly from Pakistan and Afghanistan, living in run-down parts of central Athens. Greek rights activist Thanassis Kourkoulas said the protest showed the migrants "have a voice"


It's a book for crying out loud. What a bunch of idiots.

http://www.theage.com.au/world.....-bixy.html
SFrank85





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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is only the beginning of the war against Islam, a war that we will lose at the current rate we are going.
905 Tory





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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who really cares? Its not our problem, its Greece's. And really? Is Islam really destroying Greek society?

And to the other post about a war against Islam: its that type of opposition to Islam that has led to the point the world is in today where we have two forces colliding. I ain't Muslim or anything but the thing is that this problem where cultural groups make a big deal about something doesn't just exist with Islam. It exists with every religion, and cultural group. Its sad when riots like this happen over what we perceive to be a small thing but they are going to happen. They happen even in Canada all the time with the natives, Tamils, etc.

Craig wrote:
But it is only the extremists right :roll:
It's a book for crying out loud. What a bunch of idiots.


True but the thing is that all people of religions have a tendency to do this, even if Islam is prone to more of this. The problem is not Islam specifically but organized religions. Just imagine how much uproar (especially in the U.S.) would happen if on national tv, someone did something to the Bible and the clip was played over and over on youtube. That person who performed the act would lose his job and eventually be killed by some redneck.
mrsocko





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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

905 Tory wrote:
Quote:
True but the thing is that all people of religions have a tendency to do this, even if Islam is prone to more of this. The problem is not Islam specifically but organized religions. Just imagine how much uproar (especially in the U.S.) would happen if on national tv, someone did something to the Bible and the clip was played over and over on youtube. That person who performed the act would lose his job and eventually be killed by some redneck.


You sound like your the redneck. Or should I say religious bigot.

There are many worse affronts to Christianity that take place everyday. The Davinci code was saying that Jesus did not die on the cross, that he married Mary Magdelene and had kids. This a Christian would consider total blasphemy. Not one person DIED because of it. The same sort of blasphemous event happened with the Dutch cartoons attacking Isalam and their prophet being published. Many people did die overthat event.

Don't show your ignorance by lumping all religions in with Islam.

Are you sure your not from the 416?
905 Tory





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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
905 Tory wrote:
You sound like your the redneck. Or should I say religious bigot.

There are many worse affronts to Christianity that take place everyday. The Davinci code was saying that Jesus did not die on the cross, that he married Mary Magdelene and had kids. This a Christian would consider total blasphemy. Not one person DIED because of it. The same sort of blasphemous event happened with the Dutch cartoons attacking Isalam and their prophet being published. Many people did die overthat event.

Don't show your ignorance by lumping all religions in with Islam.

Are you sure your not from the 416?


I'm the redneck? All religions are the same--exactly the same. Open your eyes. How many religions teach their followers to go out and stick their noses in other people's business? How many religions tell their people that their way is the only way? How many religions tell their people to be ready to die for their religion? How many religions tell their followers to pay up?

Now there is a reason to give money away (and it ain't to help your fellow man), and there is a reason to have faith and a reason to stick to your beliefs. My explanation for that isn't appropriate here (different thread needed).

On your examples, I can counter with Bush. He goes around telling people he is fulfilling what God has communicated to him. Bullshit. He is the biggest reason Obama is in office enjoying 8 (not 4) of infinite political capital spending the US into bankruptcy.

Oh yeah, it isn't the same as going around blowing things up but it is analogous: you guys claiming a war on Islam. How many people do you personally know that were involved in killings during the whole cartoon incident. I'd assume 0. Also, the only reason people got involved in the uproar is due to their media structure. They play it over and over and over. Sound familiar? News media plays over and over Muslims killing U.S. soldiers. What is the inherent response from the population: drop a bomb on all of them.

Lastly, on your point of the Da Vinci code, I remember a lot of controversy happening. Maybe not deaths but definitely death threats. The Catholic community was up in arms over a piece of fiction only intended to entertain. I know you say otherwise, but the response looks awfully similar at least in the context of western society.
SFrank85





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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

905 Tory wrote:
mrsocko wrote:
905 Tory wrote:
You sound like your the redneck. Or should I say religious bigot.

There are many worse affronts to Christianity that take place everyday. The Davinci code was saying that Jesus did not die on the cross, that he married Mary Magdelene and had kids. This a Christian would consider total blasphemy. Not one person DIED because of it. The same sort of blasphemous event happened with the Dutch cartoons attacking Isalam and their prophet being published. Many people did die overthat event.

Don't show your ignorance by lumping all religions in with Islam.

Are you sure your not from the 416?


I'm the redneck? All religions are the same--exactly the same. Open your eyes. How many religions teach their followers to go out and stick their noses in other people's business? How many religions tell their people that their way is the only way? How many religions tell their people to be ready to die for their religion? How many religions tell their followers to pay up?

Now there is a reason to give money away (and it ain't to help your fellow man), and there is a reason to have faith and a reason to stick to your beliefs. My explanation for that isn't appropriate here (different thread needed).

On your examples, I can counter with Bush. He goes around telling people he is fulfilling what God has communicated to him. Bullshit. He is the biggest reason Obama is in office enjoying 8 (not 4) of infinite political capital spending the US into bankruptcy.

Oh yeah, it isn't the same as going around blowing things up but it is analogous: you guys claiming a war on Islam. How many people do you personally know that were involved in killings during the whole cartoon incident. I'd assume 0. Also, the only reason people got involved in the uproar is due to their media structure. They play it over and over and over. Sound familiar? News media plays over and over Muslims killing U.S. soldiers. What is the inherent response from the population: drop a bomb on all of them.

Lastly, on your point of the Da Vinci code, I remember a lot of controversy happening. Maybe not deaths but definitely death threats. The Catholic community was up in arms over a piece of fiction only intended to entertain. I know you say otherwise, but the response looks awfully similar at least in the context of western society.


To compare Christianity with Islam is just plain wrong. Christians do not go around the world and kill people for not converting to Christianity. Muslims do!

Christians do not send suicide bombers out on missions to kill as many people as possible. Muslims do!

Christians do not force people into slavery like what is going on the Muslim world to this day!

Christians do not raise their children to be suicide bombers. Muslims do!

Even in the beginning, Jesus used the spoken word to convert people; Mohammad used the sword to convert people!
Craig
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

905 Tory wrote:
All religions are the same--exactly the same. Open your eyes. How many religions teach their followers to go out and stick their noses in other people's business? How many religions tell their people that their way is the only way? How many religions tell their people to be ready to die for their religion? How many religions tell their followers to pay up?


Islam is 500 years behind Christianity in terms of reformation. If all religions are the same then why aren't Islamic societies the same as western societies?
Craig
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

905 Tory wrote:
The problem is not Islam specifically but organized religions.


Our society is a product of Christianity. Saudi Arabia's society is a product of Islam. Where would you rather live?
905 Tory





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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SFrank85 wrote:
To compare Christianity with Islam is just plain wrong. Christians do not go around the world and kill people for not converting to Christianity. Muslims do!

Christians do not send suicide bombers out on missions to kill as many people as possible. Muslims do!

Christians do not force people into slavery like what is going on the Muslim world to this day!

Christians do not raise their children to be suicide bombers. Muslims do!

Even in the beginning, Jesus used the spoken word to convert people; Mohammad used the sword to convert people!


Wow, where do I start?
Christianity was used as an excuse for the slavery of Africans in North America.

Yeah, Christianity doesn't send suicide bombers but Christians have killed just as many people over the years in the name of Christianity. Read up on historically bloody times.

Now, I don't know what you mean by raising children to be soldiers, etc.? Have you seen Jesus Camp? Now I know the exception doesn't make the rule but that sure as hell also applies to your statement.

On your statement about spreading Christianity by word of mouth. Now, I don't know if you have taken history but Christianity didn't become the world's most populous religion by a few born-agains.

Craig wrote:

Islam is 500 years behind Christianity in terms of reformation. If all religions are the same then why aren't Islamic societies the same as western societies?


Wrong. Modern Western society is the product of taking Christianity out of the equation and the advent of secularism.
Craig
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

905 Tory wrote:
Christianity was used as an excuse for the slavery of Africans in North America.


It was also the reason it was abolished.

Quote:
Yeah, Christianity doesn't send suicide bombers but Christians have killed just as many people over the years in the name of Christianity. Read up on historically bloody times.


Over what years? 1657?

Quote:
On your statement about spreading Christianity by word of mouth. Now, I don't know if you have taken history but Christianity didn't become the world's most populous religion by a few born-agains.


Yes - hundreds of years ago Christianity was violent. It isn't today.

Quote:
Wrong. Modern Western society is the product of taking Christianity out of the equation and the advent of secularism.


B.S. Judeo-Christian values are the basis of our laws and our societal values in general. Secularism is a recent phenomenon and can't take credit for what western nations have become.

You can kiss their ass all you want but they will still cut off your head when they find out you are an atheist.
905 Tory





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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
You can kiss their ass all you want but they will still cut off your head when they find out you are an atheist.


So them wanting to convert the world is the reason you want to bomb them to pieces over and over? I mean come on. Christianity has the same goal and that is a Christian world as opposed to a Muslim world. Haven't we learned from the Holocaust that stereotyping and hate against a group leads to bullcrap.

Also, I have a few friends who are Muslim. They don't want to cut my head off. I also have a neighbour who recently emigrated from I think Iran. We always talk about world politics but never has he ever said that he wants me or any North American or European dead. He is a devout Muslim but he keeps on telling me that most Muslims believe in the same civil liberties as the next guy and its only those select few who take control of society that ruin it for the rest of them. A dictator you have thrown in with them is Saddam Hussein. He was the most secular leader in the Middle East.

On your point about being an atheist. Never have I ever been an Atheist. Atheism is the absence of belief in the existence of deities or God. I don't need religion to live a spiritual life and have everything I have ever wanted--never needing to doubt anything.
Craig Smith





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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

905 Tory wrote:
So them wanting to convert the world is the reason you want to bomb them to pieces over and over? I mean come on.


Where did I say that I wanted to bomb them to pieces? Please focus on the topic and don't put words in my mouth.

Quote:
Christianity has the same goal and that is a Christian world as opposed to a Muslim world.


Achieved through peaceful conversion. You don't have to look further than Africa, Indonesia, and Thailand to see how Islam is achieving it.

Quote:
Haven't we learned from the Holocaust that stereotyping and hate against a group leads to bullcrap.


Hmmm - but it is okay for you to stereotype ALL religions with the same statement. Earlier in this thread you said the problem wasn't restricted to Islam - it was ALL religions. Why is is okay for you to make that statement?

Quote:
Also, I have a few friends who are Muslim. They don't want to cut my head off. I also have a neighbour who recently emigrated from I think Iran. We always talk about world politics but never has he ever said that he wants me or any North American or European dead. He is a devout Muslim but he keeps on telling me that most Muslims believe in the same civil liberties as the next guy and its only those select few who take control of society that ruin it for the rest of them.


Most Germans were good people in 1937.

Quote:
On your point about being an atheist. Never have I ever been an Atheist. Atheism is the absence of belief in the existence of deities or God. I don't need religion to live a spiritual life and have everything I have ever wanted--never needing to doubt anything.


Atheism is not the lack of spirituality - it is the lack of belief in a God - you ARE an atheist by your own admission.
905 Tory





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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig Smith wrote:

Where did I say that I wanted to bomb them to pieces? Please focus on the topic and don't put words in my mouth.


I don't know if you are the same Craig but if you aren't then I don't even think you posted so where are you claiming that I am putting words into your mouth when you aren't even in the convo.


Quote:
Atheism is not the lack of spirituality - it is the lack of belief in a God - you ARE an atheist by your own admission.


Please go back and read.

I believe in God. I am spiritual but not religious. There IS a difference. Being religious is being tied down to your religion. Being spiritual is being focused on your relationship with God and really trying to understand man's place on this planet rather than just claiming that you were lucky enough to be born into the "right" religion.

I didn't want to bring this up but its needed toclarify. This is what I believe: There is a God--a force in this universe. We are extensions (incarnations) of this force, this being. Your closeness to yourself, your soul, is de facto being closer to God. Doing good deeds are not done in order to gain admission into some club but in order to clean yourself and release resistance to a more happier state-which is in turn being closer to your soul. Once this resistance is released, good flows through your life--wealth, health, love, happiness, miracles. There is no need to recognize some person from the past as your rock. All you need is yourself--you'll find your self-support through the cleaning (analogous to cleaning karma but much less limited to the perceived definition) of your resistance. Hell, you could clean and get closer to a higher state by recognizing any deity, guru, prophet--it's not like it matters. The only thing that matters is your own happiness and clear state of soul. I could find this through recognizing Jesus Christ or Muhammed or Buddha or anyone else. The only thing that matters is that I drop the negative thoughts and thus, negative feelings.

Now, I want to go back to religion. Some people need it. I recognize that. People could experience that transformation I described above through these religions. You could create your own worship system--in the end, it doesn't matter what that is--only inner state of being and the good that flows. So, religion can be good for any individual but for the most part it is a disguise to nothing. I could convert to something but still hate everything in my life or I could release that without converting and feeling restricted by something I don't agree with.
Craig
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

905 Tory wrote:
Craig Smith wrote:

Where did I say that I wanted to bomb them to pieces? Please focus on the topic and don't put words in my mouth.


I don't know if you are the same Craig but if you aren't then I don't even think you posted so where are you claiming that I am putting words into your mouth when you aren't even in the convo.


I am the same Craig - don't put words in my mouth.

Quote:
I believe in God. I am spiritual but not religious. There IS a difference.


Semantics. There is only a difference depending on how you define it. So you aren't dogmatic. If you believe in God and are spiritual then you are religious according to my definition - but who cares.

You deftly dodge my points. You get mad at me for stereotyping Islam but you seem oblivious to your own stereotyping of religions in general.

You claim that Christianity is as violent as Islam by citing incidents from hundreds of years ago.

Quote:
Now, I want to go back to religion. Some people need it. I recognize that. People could experience that transformation I described above through these religions. You could create your own worship system--in the end, it doesn't matter what that is--only inner state of being and the good that flows. So, religion can be good for any individual but for the most part it is a disguise to nothing. I could convert to something but still hate everything in my life or I could release that without converting and feeling restricted by something I don't agree with.


Yawn - this isn't what this thread is about. Islam is ruining western society as we have known it and you don't seem to care.
905 Tory





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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread has gone all over the place and I have contributed to that. But getting to the point. I just feel that it is probably not the best option to keep on going after the religion of Islam for these situations. The problem is not whats in the Koran. The problem is not that they pray five times a day or that they fast during Ramadan. The problem is that some people think they still live in the Middle East and that when someone commits something that is blasphemous, they shouldn't go around rioting allover the streets. Instead, the community leaders should go about in a polite way and hey, if they want, protest quitely outside the police station or whatever. So statements like "war on Islam" isn't really an educated one and really is ignorant to the bone. Multiculturalism is to blame, not religion.

Now, I just wanted to come to a consensus on the whole issue about the similarities and differences between Christianity and Islam. Now, we will disagree on which religion is "right" but at least we can agree that if approached correctly, both religions can be beneficial to humanity, while it is historically proven that both religions are destructive when religion is not used in the way it is intended to be: for a person to achieve a higher level (whatever that may be).
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