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What aircraft should Canada choose to replace the CF-18?
Eurofighter
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
F-18 E/F Super Hornet
44%
 44%  [ 4 ]
F-22 Raptor
11%
 11%  [ 1 ]
F-35 Lightning II
44%
 44%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 9

Author Message
ezbeatz





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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:29 pm    Post subject: F-18 Replacement Reply with quote

The CF-18 is a multi-role strike fighter that has been in Canadian service since 1983. We originally bought 138. We have about 120 left. They've already been upgraded but eventually they'll need to be replaced. By 2015 most of our CF-18 will be 30 years old. My question is what aircraft should the Canadian government purchase to replace the CF-18.



EUROFIGHTER

Specifications:
Speed: Mach 2+
Range: 1,390 nmi
Thrust/weight Ratio: 1.13
Load: 10,000lb
Unit Cost: $100 Million
Introduced: 2003
Number produced (to be produced): 146 (471)
Operators: Royal Air Force, Spanish Air Force, Austrian Air Force, Royal Saudi Air Force, Italian Air Force, German Air Force

Pros: In production. Solid aircraft.

Cons: European which means Canada won't have standardization with the US, Australia, NZ, or any other potential ally in the Asia/Pacific region.



F-18 E/F SUPER HORNET

Specifications:
Speed: Mach 1.8+
Range: 1,275 nmi
Load: 17,000lb
Thrust/weight Ratio: 0.93
Unit Cost: $55 Million
Introduced: 1999
Number produced (to be produced):
Operators: US Navy, Royal Australian Air Force

Pros: The most multi-roled aircraft of the four, and the most affordable to boot. Can do air-to-air missions, strike missions, e-warfare, and refueling.

Cons: Oldest fighter of the lot. Will it be able to meet Canada's future needs?



F-22 RAPTOR

Specifications:
Speed: Mach 2.25
Range: 1,600 nmi
Load: 21,000lb
Thrust/weight Ratio: 1.08
Unit Cost: $138 Million
Introduced: 2005
Number produced (to be produced): 127
Operators: US

Pros: Arguably the most stealthy of the lot. Has lots of strike capability. Super cruise and increased range.

Cons: Price. Designed for air superiority and air dominance in mind, it might not be the best aircraft for a small air forces which needs a true multi-role strike platform.


F-35 LIGHTNING II

Specifications:
Speed: Mach 1.6+
Range: 1,200 nmi
Load: 15,000lb
Thrust/weight Ratio: 0.89
Unit Cost: $83 Million
Introduced: Scheduled for 2011
Number produced (to be produced): ?
Operators (possible): US, UK (Australia, Canada, Denmark, Israel, Netherlands, Norway, Turkey,

Pros: All around solid aircraft with good stealth capabilities. Likely to be the world's most prolific modern fighter. Standardization with other nations Air Forces will lower costs and increasing interoperability. Multi-variant including vertical take off and landing.

Cons: Not yet in production. Unit cost increasing. Entrance into the Canadian Air Force may be delayed past 2020. Single engine is not optimal for Canadian flying conditions.


Last edited by ezbeatz on Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
Craig
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buy American.
FF_Canuck





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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some other considerations for the F-35 ... it is the end product of the JSF program, in which Canada was a significant contributor. We still have industry and research contracts for development of the plane, and at least some of the work will be done here when it begins production. As you've already mentioned, our most important allies (US, UK, Australia) will almost certainly be adopting the plane.

The CF-18 modernization project is, AFAIK, almost complete - so we're not getting into a Sea King situation if we wait a few years for the Lighting II. The Americans have been very kind in the past in letting us 'jump the queue' when we have urgent need, so I'm not too worried about production delays.
springer





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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Canada is involved in the development of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, to the tune of at least $150 million in development costs.

Are you sure about the price tag of $83 million / copy?

One of the stipulations of the JSF was that it had to be affordable, particularly for NATO allies.

To that end, the price tag I saw on this puppy was $38 million USD.

For perspective, I believe the CF-18s came in at around $32 million USD / copy, and that was in 1978 dollars. I think 123 or so were purchased, about 20 specifically built as two seaters for training.

There's no way on earth that Canada can afford...what would likely be at least 100 of these birds...the likes of the the Raptor or EuroFighter.

Our CF-18s are now coming up 30 years old, and starting to overtake their best-before date. Not knocking them, the F-18 is one of the world's premier fighters.

I'd venture that, if the price tag went up significantly, the Super Hornet would become the likely replacement. Tad bit bigger than the regular Hornet, but comes with considerably bigger cajonies...particularly in the mach capability department. They're an upgraded version specifically for US Navy carrier service.
springer





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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

However, all that said...

80 F-22 Raptors would park Canada's air force as a helluva second punch in addition to our American allies for North American defense.

The Raptor is a total air superiority fighter, there's nothing on the planet that can touch it.
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

springer wrote:
However, all that said...

80 F-22 Raptors would park Canada's air force as a helluva second punch in addition to our American allies for North American defense.

The Raptor is a total air superiority fighter, there's nothing on the planet that can touch it.


I suppose your right...but then again what are the chances of a North American air battle ?
springer





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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With F-22s flying cap?

No chance at all.

I think that's the point.

8)

No chance F-22s are in the discussion anyway. I'd be surprised if the US allowed the sale of them to anyone else in any event.

2020 is a long way off. I sure hope our forces don't have to wait that long!!!

...God forbid the Liberals are the ones to make that decision! It'll be the SeaKing all over again.

:?
ezbeatz





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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I forgot to mention that the Super Hornet uses a lot of the same parts that the original hornet uses so we'd save a lot of money of spares. Because the aircraft are similar, we'd also save time and money on the transitioning phase of ground crews and pilots. That's a big plus for the Super Hornet.
ezbeatz





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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

springer wrote:
However, all that said...

80 F-22 Raptors would park Canada's air force as a helluva second punch in addition to our American allies for North American defense.

The Raptor is a total air superiority fighter, there's nothing on the planet that can touch it.


Good point, but the US has an export ban on the Raptor. That said, the Raptor may not become mainstay aircraft of the USAF. I think they're only going to buy 250 or so. 80 Raptors for Canada would cost at least $12 billion where as the JSF would cost $6 billion and the Super Hornet $4 billion for the same number.
ezbeatz





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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

springer wrote:
Canada is involved in the development of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, to the tune of at least $150 million in development costs.


That's not much but it means we get a share of the development jobs. We're a Tier 3 partner which means we're way down on the list when it comes to who gets them first.

Quote:
Are you sure about the price tag of $83 million / copy?

One of the stipulations of the JSF was that it had to be affordable, particularly for NATO allies.

To that end, the price tag I saw on this puppy was $38 million USD.


Wikipedia has it down as $83 million a piece. Aerospaceweb has it down as $77 million a piece. So roughly around $80 million each. Originally it was suppose to be low cost but the program has gone way over budget. Still, considering the features it's only half the cost of the Raptor and delivers similar capabilities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F.....ning-II%27
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/f35/

Quote:
For perspective, I believe the CF-18s came in at around $32 million USD / copy, and that was in 1978 dollars. I think 123 or so were purchased, about 20 specifically built as two seaters for training.


I'm not sure what the original CF-18 cost but they're valued right now at about $35-40 million.

Quote:
There's no way on earth that Canada can afford...what would likely be at least 100 of these birds...the likes of the the Raptor or EuroFighter.

Our CF-18s are now coming up 30 years old, and starting to overtake their best-before date. Not knocking them, the F-18 is one of the world's premier fighters.

I'd venture that, if the price tag went up significantly, the Super Hornet would become the likely replacement. Tad bit bigger than the regular Hornet, but comes with considerably bigger cajonies...particularly in the mach capability department. They're an upgraded version specifically for US Navy carrier service.


I've heard scuttle butt from CF-18 pilot that's it will probably end up being the Super Hornet. The Super Hornet and the Legacy Hornet use a lot of the same parts and have a lot of similarities. That would save a lot on cost even with the original price being about 1/3 of the F-22 Raptor.

I also heard that the Aussie's will probably buy the Super Hornet E as well. They already have 24 F (two seat) models. They have to replace their old Legacy hornets. They were going to do it with the F-35 but the delays and costs will probably scuttle that.
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F-18 Replacement

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