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urbanmonk





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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:23 pm    Post subject: Abortion Reply with quote

Some posters made a few comments in the Ďwhy I donít trust Libertariansí thread, I wanted to make a few points and thought it might be better to post it here.
As to when life begins itís (I believe) understood that the moment the sperm penetrates the egg cell (conception) a new and unique individual is formed, all the instructions are present in this new person to now grow in the protected environment of his or her mothers womb from the size of a grain of sand to an adult man or woman.
There is no question as to whether or not a human life has been formed it is really a question of whether or not this individual, regardless of developmental stage or infirmities deserves the same rights and respect as someone who has survived the womb.
Based on my belief that the above is correct it is impossible for me to take the position that abortion could ever be considered a matter of personal choice or justified for any reason other than to protect the life of the mother when it's an either or situation.
When the subject comes up and I hear people whom I respect say things like (to mentiononly a few) ďitís a personal decisionĒ or ďIím personally against it but in cases of incest or rape it would be okĒ or ďitís a better alternative than unwanted kidsĒ Iím left with a deep sense of sadness. I find myself wondering how many people with a position on this have spent time researching it and are not just repeating what their church says or on the other side what they are fed by the abortion industry.
In a research poll conducted last fall by Environics they found that 28% of Canadians believe life should be protected at conception with another 29% saying at some point before birth (mostly before 3 months) and ten percent not saying either way. That leaves aprx 33% who have no problem with abortion. With almost 60% of our population believing abortion is wrong how is it that we as a nation have ended the lives of almost three million children since 1970? I think it is due mostly to our apathetic nature and also a desire individually to not appear fanatical. The idea that a political party in Canada needs to steer clear of this issue is only true because too many of us wonít speak up or because we take a more libertarian position.
I type about 2 words a min and i'm even slower when I'm trying to make sense so I think I'll stop for now!
crazymamma





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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may only type two words a minute, but you set a fine frame for a discussion, putting your position in clear and concise terms without villianizing any group. IMO you ask an interesting question that gives the discussion a different place to start.

Quote:
With almost 60% of our population believing abortion is wrong how is it that we as a nation have ended the lives of almost three million children since 1970?
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:55 am    Post subject: Re: Abortion Reply with quote

urbanmonk wrote:

There is no question as to whether or not a human life has been formed it is really a question of whether or not this individual, regardless of developmental stage or infirmities deserves the same rights and respect as someone who has survived the womb.


My opinion is that you are talking about a POTENTIAL human being- not a human being. Your human being is, for the first few weeks at least, is almost indistinguishable from the offspring of much lower life forms. It is not much more complicated that than the egg that it comes from.
IMHO if you don't have thoughts, you do not deserve the same protection as someone who does. If you are "brain dead" in a hospital they disconnect the life support even though in many cases they could keep your heart beating for years.

This is an interesting philosophical argument that has gone on for eons, and will continue to go on. My position is that you cannot write laws to impose your particular view in this argument on people who don't believe in it.


urbanmonk wrote:



In a research poll conducted last fall by Environics they found that 28% of Canadians believe life should be protected at conception with another 29% saying at some point before birth (mostly before 3 months) and ten percent not saying either way. That leaves aprx 33% who have no problem with abortion. With almost 60% of our population believing abortion is wrong how is it that we as a nation have ended the lives of almost three million children since 1970?



If I read your numbers, 28 percent agree with your position - that abortion is wrong period. 29% agree with mine, that protection should begin at some point. From what I read, 60% agree abortion is acceptable in some situations. I can't remember a political party getting 60% in an election.

I could also mention that in real life, there are very few late abortions in Canada. So it is really the "at some point" crowd that wins.

urbanmonk wrote:

I type about 2 words a min and i'm even slower when I'm trying to make sense so I think I'll stop for now


Perhaps everyone should slow down then. That was a very well thought out post, something that I don't often see in "pro-life" posts.
Some Guy 2.0





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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:32 am    Post subject: Re: Abortion Reply with quote

fiscalconservative wrote:

My opinion is that you are talking about a POTENTIAL human being- not a human being. Your human being is, for the first few weeks at least, is almost indistinguishable from the offspring of much lower life forms. It is not much more complicated that than the egg that it comes from.


Hypothetical scenario. In the distant future, humans create some sort of medical treatment that can completely reverse brain damage suffered in any way, including being brain dead. The person will regain all abilities and memories with zero side effects

If this medicine is cheap and readily available, would pulling a person off of life support before administering the drug be murder?

Tough question to answer for some. But to me it is clear. The answer is yes. The person without a doubt, as long as no one physically puts a stop to it, will regain all abilities. Therefore, the person, even though brain dead, would still be alive because all abilities will be regained.

Apply this to abortion. Because brain function will begin at just 6 weeks, and the fetus, which has nothing but the full and total human DNA and therefore cannot be anything other than human, would have to be considered a life as well.

Unless you actually believe in killing someone even when they will almost no matter what get better.

And you have your definitions mixed up. A potential human being would be a sperm or egg. Neither has the full DNA of a human, but has the potential to gain the full DNA of a human. A zygote and fetus, on the other hand, has 100% of the human DNA, and therefore IS human. Unless you think a zygote is an alien and somehow received its DNA from some sort of advanced technology or magic.
plcamp





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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect most folks would agree that what is feared with Abortion is the destruction of a sentient being - and therefore the first point of debate is at what point in fetal development is sentience achieved?

There's a second point of debate, that being... does the right of as sentient being to exist supercede the right of the person carrying that being to decide on their own whether or not the risk of doing so is something they accept? ie regardless of sentience, does the mother have the right to make the decision anyway?

While science may reveal a legitimate answer to the first question, it can't answer the second one. On this question there is only opinion. IMO the mother has to have the right to decide, but that is only my opinion.
Rusty Bedsprings





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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A fertilized egg can feel pain a mere six weeks after fertilization, though even this fact should be irrelevant . When a child is one (the chinese believe you are one years old once you are born) it has rights, and when a child is less than 9 months old (still in the womb) it has no rights. WTF

Now unless we want to start killing of the weak and stupid like a certain ruler of Germany did then why shouldn't all babies/humans strong or weak have the same rights? Aren't we doing the same things as the Nazis but parading our evil under the banner of science or women's rights? Then all of a sudden its OK :? .
Some Guy 2.0





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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

plcamp wrote:
I suspect most folks would agree that what is feared with Abortion is the destruction of a sentient being - and therefore the first point of debate is at what point in fetal development is sentience achieved?

There's a second point of debate, that being... does the right of as sentient being to exist supercede the right of the person carrying that being to decide on their own whether or not the risk of doing so is something they accept? ie regardless of sentience, does the mother have the right to make the decision anyway?

While science may reveal a legitimate answer to the first question, it can't answer the second one. On this question there is only opinion. IMO the mother has to have the right to decide, but that is only my opinion.


There is a problem with this logic. Sentience does not exist in a humans even after birth. And if we are to err on the side of life, we must assume that the zygote and then fetus has the same rights as everyone else. If we are right, we save millions of lives. If we are wrong, we inconvenience some women for nine months.
FF_Canuck





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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Justin Hoffer wrote:
plcamp wrote:
I suspect most folks would agree that what is feared with Abortion is the destruction of a sentient being - and therefore the first point of debate is at what point in fetal development is sentience achieved?

There's a second point of debate, that being... does the right of as sentient being to exist supercede the right of the person carrying that being to decide on their own whether or not the risk of doing so is something they accept? ie regardless of sentience, does the mother have the right to make the decision anyway?

While science may reveal a legitimate answer to the first question, it can't answer the second one. On this question there is only opinion. IMO the mother has to have the right to decide, but that is only my opinion.


There is a problem with this logic. Sentience does not exist in a humans even after birth. And if we are to err on the side of life...


I think I see where you're going with that, and you are correct. Infants and young children are not, by many objective standards, truly sentient. Some even argue that this is a process that continues to develop well into someone's twenties, though one is 'mostly a person' by their mid-teens.

The standard most of the industrialized world seems to have adopted is that of viability - the point at which a foetus can survive seperation from the womb and live to adulthood. This occurs at roughly 5-6 months (about 24 weeks).
paisley_cross





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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Abortion Reply with quote

fiscalconservative wrote:
If I read your numbers, 28 percent agree with your position - that abortion is wrong period. 29% agree with mine, that protection should begin at some point. From what I read, 60% agree abortion is acceptable in some situations. I can't remember a political party getting 60% in an election.


It would be a hell of a battle even with a middle position, say, abortions up to 20 weeks. The extremists at either end would reject it and they produce all the rhetoric on the subject. This is such a corrosive issue moderates rarely want to discuss it in public.
FF_Canuck





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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Abortion Reply with quote

paisley_cross wrote:
fiscalconservative wrote:
If I read your numbers, 28 percent agree with your position - that abortion is wrong period. 29% agree with mine, that protection should begin at some point. From what I read, 60% agree abortion is acceptable in some situations. I can't remember a political party getting 60% in an election.


It would be a hell of a battle even with a middle position, say, abortions up to 20 weeks. The extremists at either end would reject it and they produce all the rhetoric on the subject. This is such a corrosive issue moderates rarely want to discuss it in public.


Indeed. The status quo is unlikely to change in Canada for exactly this reason, IMO. The fantasy some harbour of a Conservative majority suddenly and secretly implementing their favourite version of any potential abortion law is damaging not only to the larger conservative cause, but to their own ambitions as well.
fiscalconservative





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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Abortion Reply with quote

Justin Hoffer wrote:

And you have your definitions mixed up. A potential human being would be a sperm or egg. Neither has the full DNA of a human, but has the potential to gain the full DNA of a human. A zygote and fetus, on the other hand, has 100% of the human DNA, and therefore IS human. Unless you think a zygote is an alien and somehow received its DNA from some sort of advanced technology or magic.


I think you are taking this "has DNA" thing way to far. A skin cell has the full DNA of a human. In a few years it will likely be possible to turn a skin cell into an egg . Since that skin cell has the potential to be a human, shouldn't it be saved as well ?

At the same time, there are some theories that 30% of fertilized eggs abort spontaneously. Should we make a drastic attempt to limit this number, like we make drastic efforts to save the live of a baby ? Why is it murder at the moment of conception , but acceptable to let 1/3 of all children die without medical intervention ?

What about all those eggs at fertility clinics ? In invetro fertilization there are frequently left over. They are currently just disposed of.

Quote:
gc





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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Abortion Reply with quote

fiscalconservative wrote:
I think you are taking this "has DNA" thing way to far.

Agreed. I don't know why people arbitrarily decide that DNA defines life when DNA is just one of many things required for life.
Is a blueprint the same thing as a house?
SFrank85





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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As most know, I am pro-life and I do believe that live begins at conception. The courts in Canada have taken an unprecedented step in declaring that a fetus in the womb is not human. The courts in this country have taken this position despite the fact that science proves this otherwise. We have called flowers that have not yet bloomed flowers, yet the most important thing on this planet, human life is not classified as developing human when in the womb!

Each and every one of us was at that development stage in the womb, yet here we all are developed into humans. There are stages of growth in human life, and our development in the womb is the most important stage. The development does indeed begin in the womb, and it continues outside of the womb, right up until the day we die. I believe in evolution, but not the kind that Darwin has developed. Evolution of life, all life happens, and we are all proof of it. A flower starts off as seeds, and develops its stem, and then eventually develops into a full bloom flower. After it blooms, it then starts to shrivel away and dies. The process continues again in the spring.

Humans are developed from a seed (sperm) and egg, then in the course of weeks starts to gain its shape of human forms. Over the course of 9 moths, the child in the womb develops its vital signs, and including its brain and thoughts. It develops its motion in the womb, thus the baby while in the womb will tend to kick (and I was told by my mother that I did my fair share of kicking). Once that child is out of the womb, it starts its next stage in life. It has gained limited independence, but still requires care of the parents. As that child grows older, he or she becomes less dependent. We in society have created rules on when a child become an independent adult (usually eighteen years of age). The human mind and body continue to develop, much in the same way it did in the womb. We become smarter with age. Once we hit older age, some of us will lose our independence, when we will require our dependents (children, nurses, doctors, and our future generation) to now take care of us until the day we die.

Why do we value life out of the womb, but not while it is at itís most dependent stage in the womb? We charge parents who neglect their children, but we look the other way when they are aborted. Why is one aspect of life more important that another aspect? Is it any wonder that we legalize abortion to the extent that we had in this country, while at the same time we have come to value human life in a lesser form? When we get sick, we result in assisted suicide, or even in some cases, doctors have just willing killed of their patient just so they no longer have to deal with them, as is the case in The Netherlands. As soon as we disvalue life at any stage, we lose a sense of moral authority.

Why has social Darwinism been accepted and used by the most evil regimes in the 20th century? Because once you equate humans to animals, human life becomes just as worthless as animals. Human life is the most important aspect of our being.
urbanmonk





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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Abortion Reply with quote

fiscalconservative wrote:

My opinion is that you are talking about a POTENTIAL human being- not a human being.
There are volumes of scientific evidence and comment from the scientific and medical communities that would indicate your opinion is incorrect. From day one a self contained human being exists. With advances in three and four dimensional ultrasound itís like having a ringside seat in the miracle of a babyís first weeks and months.

Quote:
IMHO if you don't have thoughts, you do not deserve the same protection as someone who does.

I admit it is easier (for me anyway) to understand someoneís position that abortion is ok up to the point a baby has brain function. The problem for me however is that all human life is special, we are all created equal and donít have the right to deny another human the same liberty and protection we have been blessed with.

Quote:
Your human being is, for the first few weeks at least, is almost indistinguishable from the offspring of much lower life forms.

If you believe humans have intrinsic worth over animals that should be irrelevant!

Quote:
If I read your numbers, 28 percent agree with your position - that abortion is wrong period. 29% agree with mine, that protection should begin at some point. From what I read, 60% agree abortion is acceptable in some situations.

Touche! :)

Quote:
So it is really the "at some point" crowd that wins.

Nope, we all loose! :cry:

Quote:
That was a very well thought out post, something that I don't often see in "pro-life" posts.

Thanks, I enjoyed reading your post too!
urbanmonk





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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Abortion Reply with quote

paisley_cross wrote:

It would be a hell of a battle even with a middle position, say, abortions up to 20 weeks. The extremists at either end would reject it and they produce all the rhetoric on the subject. This is such a corrosive issue moderates rarely want to discuss it in public.

I think you are absolutely correct! It's sad though, 20 weeks should be a no brainer!
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