Home FAQ Search Memberlist User Groups Register Login   

BloggingTories.ca Forum IndexBloggingTories.ca Forum Index
    Index     FAQ     Search     Register     Login         JOIN THE DISCUSSION - CLICK HERE      

*NEW* Login or register using your Facebook account.

Not a member? Join the fastest growing conservative community!
Membership is free and takes 15 seconds


CLICK HERE or use Facebook to login or register ----> Connect



Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next  

Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 1 of 5
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Some Guy 2.0





Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 304
Reputation: 21Reputation: 21
votes: 2

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:43 pm    Post subject: Why I don't trust Libertarians. Reply with quote

Some people look at Libertarianism as a good thing, but I disagree. This has a lot to due with how Libertarians view other ideologies, especially conservatism.

I've yet to meet a Libertarian who isn't an atheist who hates religion. I've met a number who believe in "reeducating" or even locking up people who are religious, which is, in reality, completely anti-Libertarian. Yet, they don't seem to think there is a contradiction with this thought process.

They have completely flawed ideas about preventative law measures, like seat belt laws, prostitution laws and speed limits. They are convinced that if you remove these laws, it won't cause harm, even though historically they do.

I've yet to meet a single libertarian that is willing to take Israel's side in the Middle East, and many of them are actually anti-semitic. Just look at the numbers of neo-Nazis that voted for Ron Paul in the last American election.

While drugs are a matter of debate, it should be obvious to anyone that at least the harder drugs should be kept illegal, such as Meth and Crack-Cocaine. But they don't see an issue with making these drugs legal and accessible in a corner store.

They will claim that we should not be involved in other areas of the world unless they are our allies or they request help. Israel is an ally of Canada, and yet they are steadfastly against Israel. Afghanistan has requested our help, and yet they are steadfastly against staying in Afghanistan. The same goes for Libertarians in America.

I can't find much logic in Libertarian thinking at all. I've even met a number who don't think a military is necessary for our country.

I do not trust Libertarians, and it is things like this that made me move to Conservatism rather than Libertarianism. Until Libertarians can show some logic in their thinking, I don't think I'll ever trust someone who claims to be a Libertarian.

Cross posted at <a href="http://ragingtory.blogspot.com">The Raging Tory</a>.
SFrank85





Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2269
Reputation: 59.8
votes: 4
Location: Toronto - Scarborough Southwest

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Why I don't trust Libertarians. Reply with quote

I also have a hard time linking libertarianism with conservatism, because they are completely two different ideologies. Conservatism does not believe in the nanny state, but they do believe the state does have a role, especially in the role of law and order, and moral issues, like banning abortion, disallowing same sex marriage. Conservatism is about keeping society on a traditional path, with everyone created equal, but not the same. Everyone gets a fair chance, but if you screw up, you need a time out. Without rules and regulation, you don’t have a society, but chaos. Change will happen, but change for the sake of change is not good for society, and it can be worse for people. Big government is not good, but no role for government is equally just as harmful.

Libertarians believe that the state is completely evil, with no good intentions, and governments should stay out of the affairs of people’s lives. When it comes to moral issues, they are on the opposite side of the conservative view. They do not believe in any moral legislation because god forbid things such as tradition that have been around since the beginning of mankind are not good for society. Libertarians are not immoral; they are just amoral, which could sometimes be just as worse. Also some libertarians are against laws on pedophiles because they believe the state should not have a role in the business of what people do on the internet, or in their own house. Not all who claim to be libertarians believe in this, but there are those who do.

This is not good for conservatism, because we have basically created a watered down brand of “conservatism”, and we will just end up with “conservatives” who are wrong on both sides of the issue, no role for government in the lives of people, and no moral standings for society as a whole.
ezbeatz





Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 1140
Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5
votes: 10
Location: Vaughan, ON

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't believe in speed limits and nothing bad has happen to me...yet.

I'm not sure if the absence of government would result in anarchy or the loss of religion. I think that it would allow for increase individual and collective freedoms.

Of course, it opens the door to other bad things like mob rule and possibly anarchy. Did I just contradict myself? Anyways, I would like to see government out of education for instance, at least the running of it. They can set standards and maybe fund or reimburse education fees but I don't think they should run it.
Some Guy 2.0





Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 304
Reputation: 21Reputation: 21
votes: 2

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ezbeatz wrote:
Anyways, I would like to see government out of education for instance, at least the running of it. They can set standards and maybe fund or reimburse education fees but I don't think they should run it.


I'll agree with you on that part.
crazymamma





Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 1011
Reputation: 71.8
votes: 14
Location: The kitchen

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Justin you make tooooo many assumptions about Libertarians.

May I suggest you read the following Article: The Libertarian case against Abortion.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/bar.....ell30.html

You will notice that this particular Libertarian is indeed a Pastor.

Quote:
Two basic pillars of libertarianism are personal freedom and an aversion to aggression. Libertarians rightly do not believe that people should be compelled to make decisions by the government. Even Christian libertarians, such as myself, who are morally opposed to activities such as smoking, drunkenness and homosexual behavior, still realize that it is not the proper role of the State to try to dictate to adults whether or not they should smoke. Nor does it make much sense for the State to patrol people’s bedrooms to make sure they aren’t engaging in sodomy. While many people view such habits as destructive, they can also look at the empirical evidence from history and realize that the State has a very bad track record trying to intervene in such matters (Prohibition, anyone?).


Quote:
On aggression, libertarians have long been champions against governmental coercion and unprovoked harm. Libertarians oppose unprovoked, immoral military aggression against foreign countries that are hardly waged in the name of defense. Likewise, libertarians oppose personal aggression that threatens ones life or property.


For some reason I think you are very young, perhaps your exposure to Libertarians has been not so wide or true?

Being libertarian does not make one an atheist, alternatively being an atheist does not make you a libertarian. I find the worst atheists would use the powers of the state to make the followers of any religion hide/ feel ridicule,shame and disappear. These people are in no way shape or form one iota Libertarians.
Some Guy 2.0





Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 304
Reputation: 21Reputation: 21
votes: 2

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had exposure to a number of Libertarians, and this has been my experiences with them.
Some Guy 2.0





Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 304
Reputation: 21Reputation: 21
votes: 2

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ron Paul, definitely a Libertarian, had a number of the beliefs I placed here. He wanted to limit funding to Israel and wanted to pull out of both Afghanistan and Iraq, even though the governments want American help.

I also find that Libertarians are completely blind to the threat of radical Islam, with their thinking along the lines of liberals, that it is somehow our fault that they attack us.

I can't take someone seriously when they actually think things like this.
crazymamma





Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 1011
Reputation: 71.8
votes: 14
Location: The kitchen

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ummm did you even read the link I provided?

I would be considered a libertarian by most folks.

I am a Born again Christian, I am disgusted by rampant anti-Semites that have reared their ugly heads, yet again and I fully support Israel's right to defend it's self from it's enemies. Am I just the odd egg? I think not.

To put us all in the same basket is plain silly. Some atheists can not take religious folks serious because they think the belief in a magical fairy tale book is retarded and a sign of mental instability. Do you think they have the right to place all religious folks as they must be X, Y or Z? Do you think Mother Teresa is the equivalent to Reverend Phelps?

People are complex, they take a piece of the many characteristics of all of life's experiences.

Closed minds are never a good think.
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 2463
Reputation: 131.2
votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have had exposure to a number of Libertarians, and this has been my experiences with them.


I've had exposure to alot of Libertarians on these boards and I don't see the bigotry and illogical thinking you ascribe to them.
oatway





Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 3
Reputation: 21.5Reputation: 21.5

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am christian and libertarian.

Not all libertarians are pro-abortion - I think it really comes down to when you think a person is a person. I think it is at conception, and therefore I think the embryo should have a right to be protected from harm starting at this point.

Not all libertarians are anti-Israel - I certainly am not. Not all of us are blind to the threat of muslim terror groups.

I find myself agreeing far more with Neal Boortz than Ron Paul.

I guess just like most people it's tough to place me in one box though. There's some issues where I'm more libertarian and some issues where I'm more conservative.
SFrank85





Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2269
Reputation: 59.8
votes: 4
Location: Toronto - Scarborough Southwest

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oatway wrote:
I am christian and libertarian.

Not all libertarians are pro-abortion - I think it really comes down to when you think a person is a person. I think it is at conception, and therefore I think the embryo should have a right to be protected from harm starting at this point.

Not all libertarians are anti-Israel - I certainly am not. Not all of us are blind to the threat of muslim terror groups.

I find myself agreeing far more with Neal Boortz than Ron Paul.

I guess just like most people it's tough to place me in one box though. There's some issues where I'm more libertarian and some issues where I'm more conservative.


You must say though, that being against abortion goes against the libertarian point of view. I am glade to see some libertarians against abortion, but I still think you are in the minority.

Do you believe that there should be laws restricting or even banning abortions?

As for that quote from the pastor that crazymamma posted proves my point that libertarians are not immoral, by amoral.

“I am against abortion, but I do not think the state or society should stop it from happening.”

I am sorry, but you cannot be half pregnant, saying you are against abortion or same-sex marriage, but at the same time allow it to happen THROUGH THE STATE!
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
Reputation: 104
votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Why I don't trust Libertarians. Reply with quote

I picked SFrank85's post since it seemed to contain the most fallacies about libertarianism. I suppose I could have cut up Justin's post instead... ah well!

SFrank85 wrote:
I also have a hard time linking libertarianism with conservatism, because they are completely two different ideologies.

I disagree; there's more in common than you might think. From reading your post, it's quite obvious you (like Justin) have mistaken libertarianism for anarchism. Libertarians don't seek anarchy but they do wish the government to serve the people, not the other way around.

SFrank85 wrote:
Conservatism does not believe in the nanny state, but they do believe the state does have a role, especially in the role of law and order, and moral issues, like banning abortion, disallowing same sex marriage.

You are mixing political conservatism with social conservatism. While that might be the case of you, it's not the case for everyone. As a libertarian, I despise the nanny state and I know the state has a role, especially in public safety. Moral issues don't lend themselves well to legislation since they should be self-evident.

SFrank85 wrote:
Conservatism is about keeping society on a traditional path, with everyone created equal, but not the same. Everyone gets a fair chance, but if you screw up, you need a time out.

The traditional path of libertarianism leads to the great philosophers, economists and intellectuals of the past who hoped for a world where each individual was free to do what they believed was right so long as their choice did not impact on others. Some call this concept "self-ownership" and look upon it as an expression of property rights. In a libertarian society, rights are not gifts from the government; they're inherent and must not be infringed upon unless you screw up at which point the government gets involved in the form of police and the courts for the sake of public safety.

SFrank85 wrote:
Without rules and regulation, you don’t have a society, but chaos. Change will happen, but change for the sake of change is not good for society, and it can be worse for people. Big government is not good, but no role for government is equally just as harmful.

Rules and regulations are fine so long as they don't become authoritarian. Rules for the sake of rules is as bad as change for the sake of change. Example? The firearm registry serves no good purpose. It does nothing to impact public safety since criminals don't register their guns. The Liberals knew that but went ahead because they knew it would cause many people to surrender their guns which made those people more dependent on the government.

SFrank85 wrote:
Libertarians believe that the state is completely evil, with no good intentions, and governments should stay out of the affairs of people’s lives.

That is simply wrong. Anarchists believe governments are evil. Libertarians know governments are necessary but wish the role of governments constrained so government stay out of people's affairs. Would you like the government to decide what you have for breakfast? If not, why not?

SFrank85 wrote:
When it comes to moral issues, they are on the opposite side of the conservative view.

I'm going to lump this under "anarchism" again.

SFrank85 wrote:
They do not believe in any moral legislation because god forbid things such as tradition that have been around since the beginning of mankind are not good for society.

Be careful what you wish for. Many of the "traditions" since the beginning of mankind wouldn't be very appealing to you. The Bible speaks often of polygamous marriages. Would you like to have the government telling you what religion you must follow?

SFrank85 wrote:
Libertarians are not immoral; they are just amoral, which could sometimes be just as worse.

I'm a non-smoker, a Christian, happily married for a long time. I've never fooled around on my wife and I never will. I drink alcohol very infrequently and never to excess. I'm honest and ethical to the point of annoying. I have no problem telling the difference between right and wrong. I believe strongly in personal responsibility. I'm raising my kids to be the same. How exactly am I amoral? How dare you even make such an outrageous statement!

SFrank85 wrote:
Also some libertarians are against laws on pedophiles because they believe the state should not have a role in the business of what people do on the internet, or in their own house.

I think you're pulling that out of a convenient orifice.

SFrank85 wrote:
Not all who claim to be libertarians believe in this, but there are those who do.

Proof?

SFrank85 wrote:
This is not good for conservatism, because we have basically created a watered down brand of “conservatism”, and we will just end up with “conservatives” who are wrong on both sides of the issue, no role for government in the lives of people, and no moral standings for society as a whole.

What it comes down to is this: you want the government to compel all citizens to obey the dictates of your particular moral code whereas I believe it is neither possible nor desirable for the government to try to do so.

-Mac
oatway





Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 3
Reputation: 21.5Reputation: 21.5

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I admit that most libertarians whose opinions I've heard on the subject are pro-choice. But because I see the unborn as being persons, I give them the same right to life as the born, and would protect them from harm the same. I see no difference between killing the born or the unborn, so yes, I am a libertarian who would ban abortion in all cases.
Kirby Ramsay





Joined: 07 Jan 2009
Posts: 4
Reputation: 10

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://video.google.ca/videopl.....&hl=en

This is a STRONG American Libertarian, who (you will see if you watch the entire thing) is also pro-life, tradionally catholic, and socially conservative.

The Judge represents one of MANY strands of Libertarianism, which are sooo different that it is hard to beleive sometimes that they all call themselves the same name.

I have to say though, your painting of libertarians with one big brush really shows your ignorance of what most libertarians really believe...
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
Reputation: 104
votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oatway wrote:
Yes, I admit that most libertarians whose opinions I've heard on the subject are pro-choice. But because I see the unborn as being persons, I give them the same right to life as the born, and would protect them from harm the same. I see no difference between killing the born or the unborn, so yes, I am a libertarian who would ban abortion in all cases.

Welcome to the Blogging Tories forums, oatway!

-Mac
Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 1 of 5

Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next  


 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum


Why I don't trust Libertarians.

phpBBCopyright 2001, 2005 phpBB