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Blue Meanie





Joined: 20 Oct 2006
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Location: B.C.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:

We're not talking some low-level flunkie here. If Dohm is involved, there's more to the situation than is being released. Are any of the other recounts being done at this judicial level?

-Mac

I've just done a little research. This is a judicial recount and in B.C., as the name suggests, is done by judge of the Supreme Court of the Province. So nothing unusual here. However, I see nothing in the Elections Act manual that allows for a judge to recount by using only a sample. He doesn't necessarily have to count ballots, but if that is the choice he makes, it seems to me he has to count all the ballots. The only wiggle room I can find might be this:
"2.7.2.2 Judge supervises the counting of the ballots
Where judges have chosen to supervise teams that count the ballots, different procedures have been established depending on how the judge wished to proceed."
I can't find what those "different procedures" may be. I'm not a lawyer, so if any one else cares to read:
http://www.elections.ca/conten.....only=false
Blue Meanie





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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One would think the CPC would have a team of lawyers all over this. It certainly seems if ever a case begged for it, this is the one!
Blue Meanie





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Location: B.C.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at Appedix A:
Recount procedure
304. (1) The judge shall conduct the recount by adding the number of votes reported in the statements of the vote or by counting the valid ballots or all of the ballots returned by the deputy returning officers or the Chief Electoral Officer.

Failure of Judge to Conduct Recount
Failure of judge to act
311. (1) If a judge does not comply with the provisions of sections 300 to 309, an aggrieved party may, within eight days after the failure to comply, make application for an order under subsection (3)
Order of judge
(3) The judge to whom an application is made under subsection (1) shall, if it appears that there was a failure to comply, make an order

(a) fixing the time, within the following eight days, and place to hear the application;

(b) directing the attendance of all parties interested at that time and place; and

(c) giving directions for the service of the order, and of any affidavit on which it was granted, on the judge alleged to have failed to comply and on any other interested party.

Order of court after hearing
312. (1) After hearing the judge complained of and any other parties, the judge to whom the application was made or another judge of the same court

(a) shall make an order dismissing the application or ordering the judge in default to comply with the requirements of this Act in respect of the recount; and

(b) may make an order with respect to costs.

Judge to obey order
(2) A judge found to be in default shall without delay comply with an order made under subsection (1).


This suggests to me that if all the ballot boxes were not opened, the judge has failed to comply with the provisions and an an appeal is warranted. But hey, I'm no lawyer.
palomino_pony





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So much for every vote counting. And to think that Canada sends people over to other countries to help with their elections. Rolling Eyes
paisley_cross





Joined: 09 Jul 2008
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Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

palomino_pony wrote:
So much for every vote counting. And to think that Canada sends people over to other countries to help with their elections. Rolling Eyes


I was of the belief that where the margin between the top two candidates was less than 0.1% there was a FULL judicial recount where the judge examined EVERY ballot. Anything less and it's a farce. Already one count has been overturned. To have done that with only a sample of the ballots would have been nonsensical.
paulalexdij





Joined: 11 Sep 2008
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Location: Montreal

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

paisley_cross wrote:
palomino_pony wrote:
So much for every vote counting. And to think that Canada sends people over to other countries to help with their elections. Rolling Eyes


I was of the belief that where the margin between the top two candidates was less than 0.1% there was a FULL judicial recount where the judge examined EVERY ballot. Anything less and it's a farce. Already one count has been overturned. To have done that with only a sample of the ballots would have been nonsensical.


This is a total farce and they are rubbing our noses in it. In most countries there would be rioting by now but here in Canada the silence is deadening.
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 2380
Reputation: 67.3
votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The MSM is mute on this miscarriage of justice. We can't trust them to do their jobs cause their job seems to be to back anything the Liberals want. Hopefully the CPC will appeal. Hopefully they have grounds.
Ont 07 Lib Stolen Electns





Joined: 26 Oct 2008
Posts: 3


PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about famous statement by

Dr. John C. Courtney,
Scholar in Residence, Diefenbaker Canada Centre & Professor Emeritus of Political Studies,

in

“Expert on elections, scandal, and spending”
The Globe and Mail, Apr 22, 2008:

” Any allegations of electoral impropriety (whether proved in court or not ) are bound to “damage” an electoral system. …”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com.....equested=1

1)

PET Government, 32nd Parliament:

CHRÉTIEN, The Right Hon. Joseph Jacques Jean, P.C., C.C., Q.C., B.A., LL.L., LL.D

Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada 1980.03.03 - 1982.09.09

http://tinyurl.com/5v288n

2)

The Honourable Patrick D. Dohm

Associate Chief Justice of the Supreme Court

Appointed Supreme Court Justice May 15, 1980

Appointed Associate Chief Justice of the Supreme Court February 7, 1995

http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/sc/presiders/

=====================================

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/briti.....sanjh.html

Dosanjh retains Vancouver South MP seat after recount
Last Updated: Friday, October 24, 2008 | 8:48 PM ET
The Canadian Press

… after a judicial recount Friday showed he had won — albeit with a shrunken margin of 22 votes instead of 33.

The victory was confirmed by regional Elections Canada official Donna Ceele.

Tory candidate Wai Young said she was disappointed because Associate Chief Justice Partrick Dohm, who was in charge of the recount, elected not to open all the ballot boxes. . .
Ont 07 Lib Stolen Electns





Joined: 26 Oct 2008
Posts: 3


PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is all part and pattern of the same Liberano machinery:

Unresolved Stolen Ontario Oct 07 Elections vs buying votes ..

====================================

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008

Subject:

File/docs ‘Missing/Vanished’ from Elections Ontario: successfully faxed Complaint on Oct 10, 2007;
also separate complaint not yet found at Auditor General Office

The Honourable David C. Onley, O.Ont.,
Lieutenant Governor of Ontario, Queen’s Park, Toronto, Ontario

All MPPs, Ontario Legislative Assembly

Deborah Deller, Clerk of the Legislative Assembly

Andre Marin, Ombudsman Ontario

Others to whom it must or should or may concern



The Honourable David C. Onley,
Dear MPPs,
Dear Ontario Legislative Assembly Officials,
Dear Mr. Marin,
Others who are in charge of the matter (if any),

We are asking for independent (you know from who) and transparent investigation about ‘missing’ written complaint duly submitted and successfully transmitted via fax to the Elections Ontario (EO).

1. On October 10, 2007, ...... , on behalf of grass root connected concerned (which is euphemism) Ontarians, submitted complaint to the Elections Ontario (EO),
addressed to
John L. Hollins, Chief Electoral Officer,
and
Loren A. Wells, Deputy Chief Electoral Officer.

2. Submission was 2-part fax transmissions to EO’s fax number 416-326-6200, successfully completed at 5:39pm and 8:14pm, respectively.

Please see attached file
“20071010 confirmation of 2 successful fax transmissions to Elections Ontario.pdf”

3. As there has been no reply whatsoever from the EO, I followed up today, April 17, 2007, by calling 416-326-6383 of John L. Hollins.

Ms. Louise Brown answered the call. As she could not immediately confirm any knowledge of submitted complaint, she promised to check and call me back.

4. Soon thereafter, Ms. Louise Brown of the CEO Office called me back and informed me officially that they, EO, do not have any trace of my/our submitted complaint.

5. Attached are copies of two fax transmissions successfully completed to EO fax 416-326-6200 on October 10, 2007:

“20071010 to elections ontario.pdf”
“20071010-2 to elections ontario.pdf”

As for the Office of the Ontario Auditor General,
a separate 2-part complaint was sent on October 10, 2007 via 2 e-mails, to gary.peall@auditor.on.ca, jim.mccarter@auditor.on.ca, comments@auditor.on.ca, christine.pedias@auditor.on.ca.

From my IT-side, these two e-mail went through them successfully.

I spoke to Mr. Gary Peall today, too, to see why we have not received any reply whatsoever,
and
he also could not find the copies of e-mails send to his e-mail account.

As of now, I could not get confirmation from the Office of the Ontario Auditor General regarding the whereabouts of these 2 e-mails/separate complaint at other e-mail accounts: ...

===========================

The files and further background in the above Complaint Letter dated Thu, 17 Apr 2008 to Lieutenant Governor of Ontario et al ("File/docs ‘Missing/Vanished’ from Elections Ontario: successfully faxed Complaint on Oct 10, 2007; also separate complaint not yet found at Auditor General Office"),
are at:

http://www.on_ca.keepandshare.com/

Suggested reading order may be:

20071008 Requests for Independent Ont 07 Elections Inquiry - Gross Incidents, Irregularities.pdf
20071010 to elections ontario - p.pdf
20071010-2 to elections ontario - p.pdf

20070919 OPC complaint against Globe and Mail - cover up Ont Aud Gen order.pdf
20071004 Globe and Mail is playing dirty politics in Ontario 2007.pdf
20071004 complaint against 'Globe and Mail' - for prof jacek.pdf

20080417 to All re file, docs 'Missing-Vanished' from Elections Ontario, Auditor General Office.pdf
20080418 Christine Pedias, Office of Auditor Genral of Ontario.pdf

etc ...

In short:

"... Decimation of any semblance of free and democratic Ont. Elections ‘07 -

atop of what is experienced/viewed as Ont Gov psychological warfare inflicted on its own population to incite ethnic/religious fears and hate mongering.

… sophisticated, Orwellian psychological / political ‘warfare’ of cover up, manipulation (including inciting fear and hate mongering), spin, and brainwashing. …

… Unbearable sophisticated Lib. Gov-Media collusion … blatant, un-journalistic, harm to Ont. Public just got rampant, intensified. …"
Ont 07 Lib Stolen Electns





Joined: 26 Oct 2008
Posts: 3


PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ont Auditor General reply to
" 'Missing/Vanished’ complaint files/docs re Ont 07 Elections ..."

——- Original Message ——–

Subject:
RE: complaints against Ont Gov/Lib Election 07 incidents, irregularities

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008

From: Christine Pedias
[Christine.Pedias@auditor.on.ca]

CC: Gary Peall [gary.peall@auditor.on.ca]

Thank you for writing the Office of the Auditor General of Ontario about your concerns with political donations in kind during the 2007 Ontario election.

Our Office welcomes citizens’ comments or concerns regarding government programs and services, and we keep this information on file for planning future audits.

I have forwarded your message to the director in our office responsible for these audits. We select areas for audit based on a number of criteria, which include:

- cost of a program

- level of risk to public health and safety

- volume of public commentary on a program’s performance

- other indicators that problems may exist.

You may also wish to contact Elections Ontario with your concerns since they are charged with overseeing compliance with election law. Information can also be found on their website at
http://www.electionsontario.on.ca

Write:
Elections Ontario 51 Rolark Drive
Toronto, ON M1R 3B1

Call:
(416) 326-6300 or 1 888 668-8683

Email: info@elections.on.ca

Fax: (416) 326-6200

Election Finances Office:
Tel: (416) 325-9401 or 1 866 566-9066
Fax: (416) 325-9466

Christine Pedias
A/Manager of Corporate Communications
Office of the Auditor General of Ontario
20 Dundas St. W. 15th Floor
tel: 416 327-2336
fax: 416 327-9862
Joanne TB





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
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Location: Southern Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beaver wrote:
Some sources tell me that only 28 out of 184 ballot boxes were counted. The room was so small and stuffy that not everyone was able to fit inside. Some people even had to wait outside doing nothing. After Ujjal's margin of victory dropped from 33 votes to 22 votes, the judge suddenly decided that it was time to call it quits when only 15% ballot boxes were counted.

Is it just me, or does something smell disgusting here? This recount is a joke, just to give Elections Canada face value for doing a "recount" to pretend that were actually productive.

Something needs to be done. When a judge decides not to count all the ballots when:
a) the margin of victory dropped
b) when only 15% of ballot boxes were counted
c) the race is so, so close
you know something is very wrong.


Beaver, could you please give me some idea of where you 'sources' come from? How reliable are they? Thanks.
beaver





Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 124
Reputation: 17.6Reputation: 17.6

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


Just heard on the radio that Wai Young will be appealing and challenging the recount.


Joanne TB wrote:
beaver wrote:
Some sources tell me that only 28 out of 184 ballot boxes were counted. The room was so small and stuffy that not everyone was able to fit inside. Some people even had to wait outside doing nothing. After Ujjal's margin of victory dropped from 33 votes to 22 votes, the judge suddenly decided that it was time to call it quits when only 15% ballot boxes were counted.

Is it just me, or does something smell disgusting here? This recount is a joke, just to give Elections Canada face value for doing a "recount" to pretend that were actually productive.

Something needs to be done. When a judge decides not to count all the ballots when:
a) the margin of victory dropped
b) when only 15% of ballot boxes were counted
c) the race is so, so close
you know something is very wrong.


Beaver, could you please give me some idea of where you 'sources' come from? How reliable are they? Thanks.


People who have worked closely with the campaign.
paisley_cross





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Location: Canada

PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
n the Vancouver South recount B.C. Supreme Court Associate Chief Justice Patrick Dohm opted to recount votes from 28 out of 184 ballot boxes. An automatic judicial recount was triggered because Dosanjh led by only 33 votes when results were tallied on election night Oct. 14. The recount gave Dosanjh, a former NDP premier of British Columbia, 16,109 votes to Young's 16,087.


The judge counted 15% of the boxes and found a 33% drop in the victory margin.

Then he stopped counting.

Question Exclamation
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
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Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paisley_cross wrote:
The judge counted 15% of the boxes and found a 33% drop in the victory margin.

Then he stopped counting.

Question Exclamation

Hmmm.... does look a bit strange, doesn't it?

-Mac
paulalexdij





Joined: 11 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder when 'they' are going to get around to sorting this out?
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Vancouver South recount

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