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kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess there are a lot of people that simply cannot grasp simple reality here.

http://www.powermag.com/coal/C....._2868.html

There are some mistakes in the article, but maybe the gist of it will sink in to some of the thinner skulls.

Quote:
The federal government’s announcement follows a pledge by the province of Ontario to close all four of its remaining coal-fired thermal stations—Atikokan, Lambton, Nanticoke, and Thunder Bay—by Dec. 31, 2014. Nanticoke (Figure 5) has repeatedly been scheduled for closure by Ontario Power Generation (OPG). The plant was originally scheduled to be closed in [sic]2009, but that plan was dropped in 2006 when OPG was unable to develop replacement power sources. Nanticoke is exploring converting the plant to combust biomass (see “OPG Charts Move from Coal to Biomass,” POWER, April 2010).
UNABLE TO DEVELOP REPLACEMENT POWER SOURCES, That means, that OPG did not build any new base load power plants.

I can here it now, the devastating riposte: "poo poo head". I am shaking in my boots.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
Reputation: 156.2Reputation: 156.2
votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Following prior hints that some sort of cap and close regulation would be imminent, in June 2010 the federal Environment Minister Jim Prentice announced that older coal-fired plants would have to either meet a new ultra-low emission standard or they would be shut down. The new regulation applies to all plants approaching their 45-year life, or the end of their power purchase agreements (PPA), if that occurred later.
http://www.energypolicyblog.co.....shut-down/

Also mentioned in the previous article.

OPG is in the planning stages of a new nuke plant at Darlington, they have only just applied for federal approval to continue planning; that would mean that actual generation would optimistically be 10 years out. That is, if the Sierra Club and Green Peace, and Elizabeth May do not get it canceled.

Prentice Sulky. That is what I think you should call an electric car that has had the batteries and power train removed, and is being pulled by horses. It seems like Prentice may end up being the environment minister most responsible for not enough power in the future.

But then again, what do I know? With all the wind mills that Ontario is building, you will be able to drive when the wind is blowing. Maybe solar panels really can recharge your car at night for the morning commute?
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
Reputation: 156.2Reputation: 156.2
votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.hyundaicanada.com/P.....nt%20Sedan

Retails for $18,000.

http://green.autoblog.com/2010.....ser-to-18/

Battery pack alone costs $18,000.

Note that these two cars are directly comparable, in terms of their capabilities. No trailer ability, 4 passenger compact sedans. Can you imagine paying $33,000 for a Hyundai Accent?

I guess the tens of thousands of dollars of public money that governments all over the world will be giving Nissan will help with the profit margin though. Also, not a lot of people will be buying them. The experts are predicting 10% or less of new cars sold in 2020 will be all electric.
don muntean





Joined: 07 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everything we have once 'cost too much' - every technology has been subsidized by the public purse at some step of its development. Look at the microwave oven. What would be the cost if there hadn't been subsidy?

We seem to spend lots of tax funding bureaucracy - I don't see a problem with tax dollars going to subsidize research and development.

In this case batteries are the issue. Can they ever be used practically in automobiles?

I think that if we continue with the developments in nanotechnology etc., we will see such super batteries. Look now at how much improved the technology is in the last 30 years.

26 years ago I had a Radio Shack Walkman that needed 4 AA alkaline batteries that cost about 20$ - it might play 3 tapes on a set of batteries. So then we bought a recharger in 1985 and it cost way too much something like 150$ and the batteries were like 35$ for four and they took way too long to charge like 24+ hours - all too much to make it a practical use. But we were happy to have them! I enjoyed using the walkman even if it was a pain over this battery issue!

Now I have an RCA MP3 player - technology has advanced and it has the music loaded on device and it takes only one AAA and it runs for about 10 hours on one charge. We have a Duracell quick charger and I charge the batteries in 15 minutes or less. The charger was 60$ and the batteries are 17$ for four of them and they recharge about 400 times before they are worn out.

One day we will see batteries that are able to run a car that will charge more quickly/efficiently.

Operating in cooperation...the public and private sector - with the loyalty of the consumer - we will continue to enjoy many great advancements...
Cool Blue





Joined: 21 Sep 2006
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Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Motor Trend reported that they got 127 MPG with the Volt.

An Accent is gets about 40, FYI.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool Blue wrote:
Motor Trend reported that they got 127 MPG with the Volt.

An Accent is gets about 40, FYI.
Yeah, that is with the current cheap electrical rates we pay. You will note that those numbers actually change in favor of the Accent if you use the price of gas ($2.06/l) and the price of electricity (0.42c/kwh as opposed to around 10 cents here) in Denmark. Denmark is the country most often cited as the example to follow in terms of wind power and such. In my view, to follow Denmark is to join the herd of lemmings.

If you want to keep electricity cheap, and actually have any sort of advantage for electric cars in terms of operating costs, then you have to stop the feed in tariff insanity for so called renewables.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
As for the "infrastructure" argument...

BP, Arco, Best Buy to install fast chargers for electric cars

It is starting :lol:

Quote:
It's no coincidence that the fast charger unveiled Wednesday is called Blink. The 480-volt electric-vehicle charger from the San Francisco firm ECOtality is capable of fully recharging a vehicle in 15 to 28 minutes.


15 to 28 minutes. Hmmm. I could have lunch, buy groceries, do countless things in that amount of time. I wonder how many private businesses would install this charger to gain a competitive advantage luring customers to their stores.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.co.....rgers.html

Lets see, that is about 240 KW for half an hour, so about $12 just for electricity at retail rates. Add in some profit margin, liability insurance, and cost recovery on the installation, and they will probably charge you $15 to $20 for that service. In Denmark, that same electricity puts your baseline at $48.

As always, the true test is who eats their own dog food. When are you buying one?
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found some pricing on the Volt. $41,000 US before government incentives kick in, according to this guy.

http://www.thecarconnection.co.....mpressions

Seems like not a bad review, but definitely pricey for the early adopters. You could get a lot more car for the money.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
He [Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero] also introduced subsidies of up to 20,000 euros for buyers of electric vehicles as part of a 4 billion-euro package of tax deductions, grants and subsidized loans to spur the modernization of the country’s auto industry.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/.....nburn.html

What an informative article. It sounds like they almost simply planned on buying electric cars for people. But then, the best of intentions paved the road to membership in the PIGS of Europe...
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.globalpost.com/disp.....e?page=0,0

Bad news for electric cars produced in places like Japan or the US. Also bad news for windmills, solar panels, and a bunch of other stuff.
Craig Smith





Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/china-and-its-neighbors/101020/rare-earths-china-trade?page=0,0

Bad news for electric cars produced in places like Japan or the US. Also bad news for windmills, solar panels, and a bunch of other stuff.


The people who will be attending the mosque they are building down your street absolutely love you. Why anyone would take pleasure in degrading technological advances in alternative energy production is beyond me :roll:

For every article complaining about alternative energy you post I can find ten stating the opposite. You seem to take great pleasure in finding articles that put down alternative energy technologies.

I'm pretty sure I could find an article on the web stating that cancer is a pleasant disease. That doesn't make it so.
Craig Smith





Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

don muntean wrote:
Everything we have once 'cost too much' - every technology has been subsidized by the public purse at some step of its development. Look at the microwave oven. What would be the cost if there hadn't been subsidy?


Just look at the internet itself. It was 100% government funded through the military. I guess he also hates the internet and thinks it will never catch on :P
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
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votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig Smith wrote:
kwlafayette wrote:
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/china-and-its-neighbors/101020/rare-earths-china-trade?page=0,0

Bad news for electric cars produced in places like Japan or the US. Also bad news for windmills, solar panels, and a bunch of other stuff.


The people who will be attending the mosque they are building down your street absolutely love you. Why anyone would take pleasure in degrading technological advances in alternative energy production is beyond me :roll:

For every article complaining about alternative energy you post I can find ten stating the opposite. You seem to take great pleasure in finding articles that put down alternative energy technologies.

I'm pretty sure I could find an article on the web stating that cancer is a pleasant disease. That doesn't make it so.
Wow, your skills at logical argument have to be the worst on this entire forum. That is impressive, you have some serious competition that you beat there.

Technological advancement will always lose out to sheer stupidity. As they say, those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. You have governments addicted to ever increasing spending, the new religion of Environmentology sweeping the earth causing artificial scarcity of everything you actually need to build an electric car, and here you are, attacking the messenger, for saying something you do not want to hear.

Always better to see reality rather than what you want to see, in the end.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this China rare earths thing actually does a pretty good job of explaining Warren Buffett's investment in that Byd place. If China is the only place that has the ability to mass produce electric cars for the foreseeable future, then that is the place where the subsidies will go, and that will make the money. Without the supplies of rare earths needed to make the electric motors that will go into the Volt and iMiev, and the Leaf, not much chance that they will be able to scale production as they plan.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An update on the state of the electric car.

http://green.autoblog.com/2011.....-67-leafs/

Chevy has only sold 281 Volts. Nissan 67 Leafs. I can't remember the bet. How many electric cars were there supposed to be in how many years?

The electric car wasn't killed by anyone; it never worked.
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