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mrsocko





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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:21 pm    Post subject: United Church Supports Abortion??? Reply with quote

from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.....27s_rights

Quote:
Its more recent positions on abortion have perhaps been more contentious: recent positions have consistently asserted that women have a right to self-determination with regard to abortion and in summary have been as follows:

(1980) Declared support for contraception and access to abortion: "We do not support 'abortion on demand.' We believe that abortion should be a personal matter between a woman and her doctor, who should earnestly consider their understanding of the particular situation permitting the woman to bring to bear her moral and religious insights into human life in reaching a decision through a free and responsive exercise of her conscience."[5]
(1989) Policy paper issued urging the Canadian government "not use the provisions in the Criminal Code to regulate abortion"[6]
(1990) Issued policy paper encouraging the Canadian government to improve rural access to abortion[7]


It's not like they want to give women choice, They actually want MORE ABORTION.

What a screwed up church! They deserve there long march toward irrelevance. 2.5 milion members in 1970. 500,000 today. I guess God's not onside with the Church supporting abortion. Maybe they should see if he like euthanasia. And when their numbers drop to 100,000 they should see if God approves of legalized drugs.

After all when the numbers start dropping why look to the Bible to see what you are doing wrong!! :x
Riley W





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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The United Church is actually quite successful in my area...

It's the biggest church in my town, and they just recently built a new church building.

I like the United Church because they are more focused on Christ's message of loving your fellow man, acceptance, tolerance, and I like that they support same-sex marriage.

But supporting abortion makes no sense and has no cohesion at all with the Bible.
truth4freedom





Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riley W wrote:
I like the United Church because they are more focused on Christ's message of loving your fellow man, acceptance, tolerance, and I like that they support same-sex marriage.

But supporting abortion makes no sense and has no cohesion at all with the Bible.


Neither does same sex relationships at any level. One cannot ignore part of Jesus's message while embracing others. Jesus had His choicest words for those types of individuals. Leading people down a nice and easy road to hell is idiocy.
potan





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:18 am    Post subject: Anglicans are getting cookier everyday Reply with quote

Thats right, truth4freedom

1 Corinthians. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Romans. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

We Christians tend to focus on the sins of homosexuality and murder too much, hey the Bible says lairs and thieves also are guilty of sin (I know I was guilty of that for a long time) . In God's eyes all these sins are equal, they all lead to Hell. Yes we have a responsibility to point out what is sin, including homosexuality, but how often do we point out liars and thieves. Yes you will be persecuted for it, but how you live your life should also confirm what your tongue says.
SFrank85





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The United Church has become redundant anyways.
dotconservative





Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riley W wrote:

...and I like that they support same-sex marriage.

But supporting abortion makes no sense and has no cohesion at all with the Bible.



Are you serious?
don muntean





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Anglicans are getting cookier everyday Reply with quote

potan wrote:
Thats right, truth4freedom

1 Corinthians. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Romans. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

We Christians tend to focus on the sins of homosexuality and murder too much, hey the Bible says lairs and thieves also are guilty of sin (I know I was guilty of that for a long time) . In God's eyes all these sins are equal, they all lead to Hell. Yes we have a responsibility to point out what is sin, including homosexuality, but how often do we point out liars and thieves. Yes you will be persecuted for it, but how you live your life should also confirm what your tongue says.


God does NOT view all sins alike - people who commit murder are not seen the same as one who steals.
gc





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

truth4freedom wrote:
Leading people down a nice and easy road to hell is idiocy.

Yep, better to listen to the bible and stone them to death instead :roll:
urbanmonk





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:

Yep, better to listen to the bible and stone them to death instead :roll:

That was old testament not what Jesus taught, although I think Moses may have been onto something :~)

Funny, without anyone telling me I just assumed the United Church would be for abortion, they aren't interested in the Bible or truth anymore.
FascistLibertarian





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope you guys all follow Leviticus so you dont go to hell. :lol:
Cool Blue





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And they wonder why their membership declines every generation...
Cool Blue





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I hope you guys all follow Leviticus so you dont go to hell.


As somebody else said, that's Old Testament, not what Jesus taught.

For example, Leviticus lists a bunch of forbidden foods, however, Jesus later said (I'm paraphrasing), "Sin enters through the heart, not the mouth", thereby freeing Christians to eat pretty much whatever they want.

The OT however is used to interpret what Jesus MIGHT have taught on a subject but that is just an interpretation which some Christians and/or churches might not agree with.

The reason the OT is used in this way is because in the New Testament Jesus actually addresses only a dozen or so topics.
don muntean





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Torah is not the 'old' [as in no longer in effect] testament.

The Gospels are not a 'new' testament - they are another testament.

God is not like some man who changes His mind - that defies the meaning of omniscience - He did not amend the laws. The fact is the laws that are given to the Jews do not pertain to non-Jews [unless a non-Jew chooses otherwise]. What laws then apply? The seven laws [and the subset of considerations that go with them] given to Noah.

1 Idolatry is forbidden. Man is commanded to believe in the One G-d alone and worship only Him.

2 Incestuous and adulterous relations are forbidden. Human beings are not sexual objects, nor is pleasure the ultimate goal of life.

3 Murder is forbidden. The life of a human being, formed in G-d's image, is sacred.

4 Cursing the name of G-d is forbidden. Besides honoring and respecting G-d, we learn from this precept that our speech must be sanctified, as that is the distinctive sign which separated man from the animals.

5 Theft is forbidden. The world is not ours to do with as we please.

6 Eating the flesh of a living animal is forbidden. This teaches us to be sensitive to cruelty to animals. (This was commanded to Noah for the first time along with the permission of eating meat. The rest were already given to Adam in the Garden of Eden.)

7 Mankind is commanded to establish courts of justice and a just social order to enforce the first six laws and enact any other useful laws or customs.

These are the basic laws given to Noah. Noah was also told that eating blood and fat was forbidden and later Moses was told the same thing.

Of course God's original plan and His ultimate plan for the world is that no one shall eat any flesh - not even the lion!

The comment that sparked this discussion was about God sending people to hell. It was implied that every sinner goes to hell - irregardless of the sin.

That is incorrect. People may believe that but it is nonetheless - incorrect.

Since Christian theology is an offshoot of Hebrew theology it would be incumbent on followers of Jesus [who was 'living' as a Jew] to know the Hebrew teachings about things like sin [the fictional] satan - hell and - reincarnation.

God is not an all or nothing affair. God certainly expects us to advance - yet He rewards us - even if but for our sincere heartfelt efforts.

One of the factors in sin is the yetza hara - or the evil inclination in the hearts of all people - we learn from Genesis that the human is born with this inclination.

While people are looking for 'the (fictional) enemy' that leads them into sin - outside of themselves - they fail to confront this very real inner enemy.

God is about mercy. God is about judgment. God - the master director - is interplaying these two points at all times - for our benefit.

Look to Pharaoh and his heart being hardened by God. Why did God harden his heart?

These two were in interplay - mercy and judgment.

On the one hand the king was in abject denial about the true authority of God - hence the plagues. This is an interesting point here - because the king was witness to some awesome supernatural events - he would be inclined to 'obey' - but not out of understanding - but out of awe and fear.

This isn't what God was looking for - He was looking to break the delusions in the heart of the king - thus - he had to balance the siltation so that pharaoh's freedom of choice could exert itself and he could thus act according to his heart.

Pharaoh thought he himself was God - his people viewed him as God. At the end of this scenario we see that God broke Pharaoh's delusions and - without interfering with his freedom of choice. The talmud says he sits at the gates of hell waiting to greet other foolish rulers! :lol:

Back to hell. Hell is not as much punishment as much as it is a place of reform.

Those souls that go to hell have entirely rejected God and have embraced wickedness.

We end up in hell for rejecting God and when we reject God we fall into a life of wickedness. So sin is not the cause of one's going to hell. That is why sincere repentance is so important and that cannot happen unless we really cleave to God within our hearts.

We learn in the Hebrew theology that hell is not eternal - those souls who are sent there are released at some point - when they have the sincere change of heart.

Of course one may experience hellish circumstances in this life and that too is a state of hell and that too has something to do with the inner heart and our perspective on God.

In the Hebrew tradition we see that the soul is indeed eternal - that it was even preexisting - we see that God has a program within a program - souls are permitted to transmigrate and try to attain this proper perspective on God.

Of course His plan also notes a future resurrection of the dead - during a messianic era.

So how do those two work together? In the bible [Daniel 12.2] we learn that 'some people' will come out of the graves - not all:

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

So the words are "many of them". What of the others?

Who comes out of the graves in the resurrection? Those souls who went to heaven and those left in hell. Everyone else not good enough for heaven and not wicked enough to remain in hell - will be in living bodies.

It is clear from the wording "some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" - we can see this logically - only when we accept the authorized teachings regarding transmigration can we reconcile this point.

We also must understand the 'grand' scenario in which all this is unfolding - and there is a verifiable pattern in our lives and - history [especially Jewish history] shows God's direct interactions.

Which is better? Fear of God or fear of sin?


Last edited by don muntean on Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:07 am; edited 5 times in total
Cool Blue





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like I said, there are different interpretations (hence different denominations).

I believe that a new covenant was made with Jesus so the old testament rules no longer apply necessarily.

If you don't, that's fine too IMO because that is how you chose to honor of God.
Riley W





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ugh...I am not getting into this debate with you socons.

While your at it, how `bout condemning those who eat shrimp and those good 'ol Tory farmers who plant 2 different seeds side-by-side...

'cause you know Leviticus casts that as a "abomination" too.

:roll:

Must be so fun being a fundamentalists, being so caught up on the fringes of the Old Testament and completely forgetting about Christ's message of love, forgiveness, tolerance, acceptance, etc.
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