Home FAQ Search Memberlist User Groups Register Login   

BloggingTories.ca Forum IndexBloggingTories.ca Forum Index
    Index     FAQ     Search     Register     Login         JOIN THE DISCUSSION - CLICK HERE      

*NEW* Login or register using your Facebook account.

Not a member? Join the fastest growing conservative community!
Membership is free and takes 15 seconds


CLICK HERE or use Facebook to login or register ----> Connect



Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next  

Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 3 of 5
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
SFrank85





Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2269
Reputation: 59.8
votes: 4
Location: Toronto - Scarborough Southwest

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
Luke wrote:


I find that most Christians agree on those issues. Sometimes Catholics stray from the pack on capital punishment. Views on abortion and homosexuality I think are pretty consistent among most Christians. Certainly I can find two who agree on those issues.

I have no problem with us retaining traditions that reflect Christianity. If people are offended by that, I feel for them. If we had traditions that reflected Islam or Hindu, it would be equally valid to leave those alone too. I would just prefer if we left our traditions alone, and didn't attempt to homogenize them to the point where nobody would be offended, or understand where they come from.

Pretty consistent isn't exact. Take white lies for example. And when I say agree, I mean agree on all issues. The fact you admit that Catholics stray from many other Christian sects when it comes to the death penalty is an admission that morality is subjective. Though you may think yours are objective, they differ to varying degrees to others. You have to have a lot nerve to think your interpretation of the bible is right compared to another Christian who interprets it differently. But most religious people do have a lot of nerve that way:)


You also need to know that despite the different interpretations of the bible by Christians, one thing you don’t realise (and you need to be a Christian to realise this) is that all have a common belief that Jesus Christ is the way and life, the son of god. All Christians agree with this.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:



That's quite a stretch.

And it took how many other CHRISTIAN countries to stop Hitler? LOL - this is too easy.


I want to live in a country with people who share my values. Sharia law is not consistent with my values. We still are a Christian country. We are not far from where I want this country to be. I just need to stop people like you from changing it.

Sharia law or any religious law that discriminates and makes it through the courts is not consistent with my values.
We are not a Christian country. Well, I don't really know what your idea of a Christian country is because you refuse to define it.
The changes made are for the better. Jews are allowed to go to any university they choose to now, for example. Check out Monte Hall's story about not being allowed to go to certain universities because he was a Jew, and check out the old signs that used to be on Toronto beaches "no dogs or Jews allowed"
Is that your idea of a Christian nation. I spit on it.

What Christian countries stopped Hitler? The founders of the USA didn't want to favour any religion contrary to what apologists state.
Were the Russians a Christian state? They stopped Hitler too. The bottom line was that it was easy to sell the idea that Jews needed to go to a country the had an overwhelming majority of Catholics.

I'd like to know what good things I'm trying to change.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FF_Canuck wrote:
I think this discussion might be more productive if all parties avoided 'reductio ad Hitler'... I'm interested in BEAJ's vision of a secular nation, as well as Craig's vision of a Christian one. I'm not sure they're that different when it comes to broad strokes.

Probably not, but Craig fails to see that favouring any religion in todays day and age opens the door to Sharia law as Condell states in his video.
The reason Muslim prayer is now in the government is because of "thinkers" like Craig who need the Lords Prayer on tax payer dollars, so that he can beat his chest that this is a Christian nation :roll:

As far as the country that I want. It is pretty close to what we have or are about to have once we get rid of the whining religionists.
A country where everyone is free to believe whatever they want at home, in the car, in the elevator, or their place of worship, but keep it out of the government, the schools, and the public square. Leave those places alone for facts not faith.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SFrank85 wrote:

You also need to know that despite the different interpretations of the bible by Christians, one thing you don’t realise (and you need to be a Christian to realise this) is that all have a common belief that Jesus Christ is the way and life, the son of god. All Christians agree with this.

They don't agree on what the way of life is though. That is my point. And I'd say that the majority of those who call themselves Christians in Canada today are not anywhere nearly as passionate about this way of life thing as you want to think they are.
SFrank85





Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2269
Reputation: 59.8
votes: 4
Location: Toronto - Scarborough Southwest

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The European enlightenment is a fine example of Christian nations.

You want to know why Martin Luther King Jr. got a Ph D in religious studies? Because that was the only type of studies that blacks could enrol in.

It was those “evil” Christians who lead the way to ending the slave trade in Great Britain. I suppose that was very “evil” of them.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For one thing, you need to realise that Hitler hated the Jews because of his perverse views that the Jews had caused Germany to lose the First World War. You really need to know the basics of your history before you start lies about Hitler being Christian. You also need to learn that Bismarck’s Prussia had nothing to do with Hitler’s Germany. As a matter of fact, it was Christians who saved the Jews from the Nazi regime by hiding them in churches. Hitler also came to power, never winning a majority, and he had nothing to do with winning the catholic or Christian voters. You are naive to think this, and you need to know the history of the Reichstag elections in the Weimar Republic in the 1920’s and 1930’s.

Let’s take a look at atheist regimes around the world… The Soviet Union, North Korea, China, Cuba... Is there not a pattern here?
***********************************************************
There were many reasons why there was growing anti-semitism not just in Germany but all of Europe. Don't accuse me of not knowing history. And I didn't say that Hitler was necessarily a Christian. It is difficult to figure out if he considered himself one or not. But he did believe in God.

But I actually discussed Christianity and the Nazis with a Canadian who was with the Hitler Youth, and he told me that Hitler played on Christianity big time. But why would I take his word for it?

Yes, some Christians took in Jews, and some Christians shot Jews and threw them in pits.

As far as atheist regimes goes. They were not atheist regimes. They were different ideologies run by crazed rulers. would you say that Denmark or Sweden today are atheist regimes?, as over half of their populations are atheist or agnostic.

There are over 30 million atheists in America and over 6 million in Canada. How many atheists do you think are nazis or communists in those two countries today?
SFrank85





Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2269
Reputation: 59.8
votes: 4
Location: Toronto - Scarborough Southwest

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
SFrank85 wrote:

You also need to know that despite the different interpretations of the bible by Christians, one thing you don’t realise (and you need to be a Christian to realise this) is that all have a common belief that Jesus Christ is the way and life, the son of god. All Christians agree with this.

They don't agree on what the way of life is though. That is my point. And I'd say that the majority of those who call themselves Christians in Canada today are not anywhere nearly as passionate about this way of life thing as you want to think they are.


Can you find a Christian church beside the United Church of Canada that supports abortion? Is it a wonder why the United Church and the Anglican Church of Canada are losing membership to other churches? The United Church was at over 2 million members, now it is under 500,000. Most Christians agree on the morals of life. It is mostly United Church members who are way out in left field on issues. Plus, United Church services have become more political than any other church I have been too. Maybe you would fit in with them, because it is a very secular “church”
gc





Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Posts: 1698
Reputation: 48.4Reputation: 48.4Reputation: 48.4Reputation: 48.4Reputation: 48.4
votes: 16
Location: A Monochromatic World

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
A country where everyone is free to believe whatever they want at home, in the car, in the elevator, or their place of worship, but keep it out of the government, the schools, and the public square. Leave those places alone for facts not faith.

Very hard to argue with that.

P.S. Good to see you back. :)
SFrank85





Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2269
Reputation: 59.8
votes: 4
Location: Toronto - Scarborough Southwest

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:

There were many reasons why there was growing anti-semitism not just in Germany but all of Europe. Don't accuse me of not knowing history. And I didn't say that Hitler was necessarily a Christian. It is difficult to figure out if he considered himself one or not. But he did believe in God.

But I actually discussed Christianity and the Nazis with a Canadian who was with the Hitler Youth, and he told me that Hitler played on Christianity big time. But why would I take his word for it?

Yes, some Christians took in Jews, and some Christians shot Jews and threw them in pits.

As far as atheist regimes goes. They were not atheist regimes. They were different ideologies run by crazed rulers. would you say that Denmark or Sweden today are atheist regimes?, as over half of their populations are atheist or agnostic.

There are over 30 million atheists in America and over 6 million in Canada. How many atheists do you think are nazis or communists in those two countries today?


30 million out of 310 million is still not much considering that you believe in a God or not. The same in Canada could be said. How many atheists in are communist or Nazis? Let me ask you how many communists are not atheists? Nazi’s come in all shape and sizes today, which I will agree with you that most Nazis are religious because Nazism is their religion, just as much as communism is communist’s religion, and atheism is atheists’ religion. Atheists are so fundamentalist in their thinking, that they want all of society to think and be as progressive as them. How has secular humanism worked out for the world?

Are these nations that I listed not in fact had official atheist policies? Yes they did. Therefore they are atheist.
SFrank85





Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2269
Reputation: 59.8
votes: 4
Location: Toronto - Scarborough Southwest

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
A country where everyone is free to believe whatever they want at home, in the car, in the elevator, or their place of worship, but keep it out of the government, the schools, and the public square. Leave those places alone for facts not faith.

Very hard to argue with that.

P.S. Good to see you back. :)


So you want people not to act as themselves in the public square? We all must conform to secular humanism in the public square? Anyone with any religion should not have any say in any public policy matter at all? That sound’s like a authoritative system to me.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SFrank85 wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
SFrank85 wrote:

You also need to know that despite the different interpretations of the bible by Christians, one thing you don’t realise (and you need to be a Christian to realise this) is that all have a common belief that Jesus Christ is the way and life, the son of god. All Christians agree with this.

They don't agree on what the way of life is though. That is my point. And I'd say that the majority of those who call themselves Christians in Canada today are not anywhere nearly as passionate about this way of life thing as you want to think they are.


Can you find a Christian church beside the United Church of Canada that supports abortion? Is it a wonder why the United Church and the Anglican Church of Canada are losing membership to other churches? The United Church was at over 2 million members, now it is under 500,000. Most Christians agree on the morals of life. It is mostly United Church members who are way out in left field on issues. Plus, United Church services have become more political than any other church I have been too. Maybe you would fit in with them, because it is a very secular “church”

You made a statement that all Christians follow the path of Jesus. Not the churches, I'm not going to argue what the churches tell their flock. But even you mention that some Christian churches are pro-choice. There goes that objective morality argument out the door again :)
So now you are saying that all Christians do not follow the same path. They can't even agree on abortion as individuals:
In an April 2006 Leger poll, 34% of respondents said they found abortion "immoral," behind paedophilia, extramarital affair, prostitution, alcohol abuse, sexual relations before the age of 16, pornographic films and blasphemy. [5]
**************************************
I think that more than 34% of Canadians consider themselves to be Christians, ie believe in Jesus as the son of God. But only around half consider abortion to be immoral (Assuming that around 70% of Canadians are Christian)

* In a June 2008 Angus Reid Strategies poll, almost half of respondents (46%) believe abortion should be permitted in all cases. Roughly two-in-five Canadians (19%) would subject abortion to greater restrictions than now, 22 per cent would allow the procedure only in cases such as rape, incest and to save the woman's life, and seven per cent would only permit abortion to save the woman's life.

In addition, half of Canadians (49%) believe abortion should be legal under any circumstances. Conversely, 42 per cent of respondents want the procedure to be legal only under certain circumstances, while five per cent would outlaw abortion altogether. Younger, wealthier and university-educated respondents are more likely to uphold the legality of abortion. [6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Canada

The reason that people are leaving the church is because people (especially young ones) are realizing that the church teaches intolerance and lies (about evolution and the age of the earth in many instances). The internet is causing many Christians to leave.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SFrank85 wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:

There were many reasons why there was growing anti-semitism not just in Germany but all of Europe. Don't accuse me of not knowing history. And I didn't say that Hitler was necessarily a Christian. It is difficult to figure out if he considered himself one or not. But he did believe in God.

But I actually discussed Christianity and the Nazis with a Canadian who was with the Hitler Youth, and he told me that Hitler played on Christianity big time. But why would I take his word for it?

Yes, some Christians took in Jews, and some Christians shot Jews and threw them in pits.

As far as atheist regimes goes. They were not atheist regimes. They were different ideologies run by crazed rulers. would you say that Denmark or Sweden today are atheist regimes?, as over half of their populations are atheist or agnostic.

There are over 30 million atheists in America and over 6 million in Canada. How many atheists do you think are nazis or communists in those two countries today?


30 million out of 310 million is still not much considering that you believe in a God or not. The same in Canada could be said. How many atheists in are communist or Nazis? Let me ask you how many communists are not atheists? Nazi’s come in all shape and sizes today, which I will agree with you that most Nazis are religious because Nazism is their religion, just as much as communism is communist’s religion, and atheism is atheists’ religion. Atheists are so fundamentalist in their thinking, that they want all of society to think and be as progressive as them. How has secular humanism worked out for the world?

Are these nations that I listed not in fact had official atheist policies? Yes they did. Therefore they are atheist.


An atheist is simply someone who answers the question Do you believe in God? with a no.
There is atheist policy or religion, unless you want to change the definition of religion.
My point about the 30 million people has to do with the fact that atheists do not have an ideology that is consistent with communism. It is totally separate. Most members of the communist party most likely believe in some sort of deity. The people under the regime still held beliefs. You don't all of a sudden turn on or off a belief in God to become a Communist and many people were forced to be Communists.
Secular humanism is working just fine in Canada, the USA, Sweden, etc.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SFrank85 wrote:


So you want people not to act as themselves in the public square? We all must conform to secular humanism in the public square? Anyone with any religion should not have any say in any public policy matter at all? That sound’s like a authoritative system to me.

I'm all for silent prayer, or praying out loud to oneself, but a prayer should not be forced on anyone or any group in the public square. Authoritative is to arrange a prayer in government or schools. They do that kind of stuff in most middle eastern countries.
gc





Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Posts: 1698
Reputation: 48.4Reputation: 48.4Reputation: 48.4Reputation: 48.4Reputation: 48.4
votes: 16
Location: A Monochromatic World

PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SFrank85 wrote:
Let’s take a look at atheist regimes around the world… The Soviet Union, North Korea, China, Cuba... Is there not a pattern here?

Those are not atheist countries, but rather anti-theist countries. There is a big difference.
Bleatmop





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 953
Reputation: 17.5Reputation: 17.5
votes: 10

PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
A country where everyone is free to believe whatever they want at home, in the car, in the elevator, or their place of worship, but keep it out of the government, the schools, and the public square. Leave those places alone for facts not faith.

Very hard to argue with that.

P.S. Good to see you back. :)


Lol, it's good to agree with you sometimes GC. I agree with your agreement. :lol:
Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 3 of 5

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next  


 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Is A Secular World A Sane World

phpBBCopyright 2001, 2005 phpBB