*NEW* Login or register using your Facebook account.
Not a member? Join the fastest growing conservative community!
Membership is free and takes 15 seconds
CLICK HERE or use Facebook to login or register ---->
  |
|
Page 2 of 5
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
|
 Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:04 am Post subject: |
 |
|
Luke, the reason I bring up the part about ancient cultures and morality and values is that it is often an argument that since we have "Judeo-Christian" values we should have Judeo-Christian prayer in school and the government. That is why I am not just making a petty distinction here.
Some of the 10 Commandments mention God, but as the recently deceased George Carlin said amongst his cursing on stage was that the 10 Commandments can really be condensed to 2 or 3.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCz0-HY1TLU
As far as objective morals go, I have yet to see two people, including two Christians agree on the degree of how they think God feels about major morality issues such as abortion, homosexuality, the death penalty, stealing bread to feed the family, how to deal with a child rapist, etc. |
|
|
|
 |
Craig
Site Admin
Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 4415
  
votes: 36
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| theatheistjew wrote: | | You may want a theocracy. I don't. And a Christian country would be a theocracy |
Was Canada a theocracy 20 years ago when I said the lord's prayer in class after singing Oh Canada? Your comparison to Saudi Arabia is alarmist.
| Quote: | | Last survey, 23% of Canadians are atheist: |
Good. So you remain a clear minority.
And a Christian nation includes all people who believe in Christ. |
|
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Craig wrote: |
Was Canada a theocracy 20 years ago when I said the lord's prayer in class after singing Oh Canada? Your comparison to Saudi Arabia is alarmist.
Good. So you remain a clear minority.
And a Christian nation includes all people who believe in Christ. |
*******************************************
I have no idea what you mean then by a Christian nation. I really don't.
There is a Catholic Lords Prayer that is different to the Protestant version. Which Lord's Prayer do you want?
And yes, there was a time when Jews couldn't get into certain clubs and even universities thanks to Canada's Christian status (back then it was pretty much just Catholics and Protestants who made up the rules). Is that alarmist?
Actually, Protestants who want Canada to be a Christian nation are in the minority.
And as far as Christianity and theocratic governments are concerned, lets look at Nazi Germany where the overwhelming majority of their population were Catholics taught that the Jews killed Jesus. It made physical attacks against Jews a much easier sell. |
|
|
|
|
Luke
Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 54
Location: Saskatoon, Sk.
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| theatheistjew wrote: | Luke, the reason I bring up the part about ancient cultures and morality and values is that it is often an argument that since we have "Judeo-Christian" values we should have Judeo-Christian prayer in school and the government. That is why I am not just making a petty distinction here.
Some of the 10 Commandments mention God, but as the recently deceased George Carlin said amongst his cursing on stage was that the 10 Commandments can really be condensed to 2 or 3.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCz0-HY1TLU
As far as objective morals go, I have yet to see two people, including two Christians agree on the degree of how they think God feels about major morality issues such as abortion, homosexuality, the death penalty, stealing bread to feed the family, how to deal with a child rapist, etc. |
I find that most Christians agree on those issues. Sometimes Catholics stray from the pack on capital punishment. Views on abortion and homosexuality I think are pretty consistent among most Christians. Certainly I can find two who agree on those issues.
I have no problem with us retaining traditions that reflect Christianity. If people are offended by that, I feel for them. If we had traditions that reflected Islam or Hindu, it would be equally valid to leave those alone too. I would just prefer if we left our traditions alone, and didn't attempt to homogenize them to the point where nobody would be offended, or understand where they come from. |
|
|
|
|
Craig
Site Admin
Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 4415
votes: 36
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| theatheistjew wrote: | | There is a Catholic Lords Prayer that is different to the Protestant version. Which Lord's Prayer do you want? |
Why do you insist that there be just one prayer to our lord???
| Quote: | | And yes, there was a time when Jews couldn't get into certain clubs and even universities thanks to Canada's Christian status (back then it was pretty much just Catholics and Protestants who made up the rules). Is that alarmist? |
Comparing us to Saudi Arabia IS alarmist. Because you can cite a few examples doesn't make your comparison valid.
| Quote: | | And as far as Christianity and theocratic governments are concerned, lets look at Nazi Germany where the overwhelming majority of their population were Catholics taught that the Jews killed Jesus. It made physical attacks against Jews a much easier sell. |
Nazi German was anything but a theocracy. Your argument just became absurd.
Quotes from Hitler...
| Quote: | "National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things."
"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure."
"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity <is> the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State."
"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."
"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease."
"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." |
Sounds like atheism is the real danger in terms of comparisons to Nazism. |
|
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Luke wrote: |
I find that most Christians agree on those issues. Sometimes Catholics stray from the pack on capital punishment. Views on abortion and homosexuality I think are pretty consistent among most Christians. Certainly I can find two who agree on those issues.
I have no problem with us retaining traditions that reflect Christianity. If people are offended by that, I feel for them. If we had traditions that reflected Islam or Hindu, it would be equally valid to leave those alone too. I would just prefer if we left our traditions alone, and didn't attempt to homogenize them to the point where nobody would be offended, or understand where they come from. |
Pretty consistent isn't exact. Take white lies for example. And when I say agree, I mean agree on all issues. The fact you admit that Catholics stray from many other Christian sects when it comes to the death penalty is an admission that morality is subjective. Though you may think yours are objective, they differ to varying degrees to others. You have to have a lot nerve to think your interpretation of the bible is right compared to another Christian who interprets it differently. But most religious people do have a lot of nerve that way:) |
|
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Why do you insist that there be just one prayer to our lord???
*****************************
Why not have hundreds then, and not even have kids learn anything in school or for government sessions to not get started until after lunch.
How many prayers to your Lord are performed in most public setting these days btw?
Comparing us to Saudi Arabia IS alarmist. Because you can cite a few examples doesn't make your comparison valid.
**********************************
Prayer in public, intolerance towards homosexuals, favoring one religion over others...should I go on?
Hitler didn't like organized religion, but the Nazis and the rest of the German army embraced the Catholic God. They had something to do with God written on their belt buckles. Hardly atheistic. Hitler used the countries overwhelming majority of Catholics and played on it.
As for his personal beliefs, he felt that Aryans were a special creation of God. Again, this has nothing to do with atheism either.
For what it is worth OBL doesn't necessarily have to believe in Islam to use the Koran and its followers to blow themselves up. FYI, I do think that OBL is a believer.
It was the religious writings and interpretations that the Jews killed Jesus and all the rest of the stuff the Catholics used from the bible to make the Jew a villain that led to the German people accepting the atrocities committed on fellow human beings.
Again, you failed to define what exactly you mean by a Christian nation. Is it possible that you can define it for me. What would change that isn't happening right now, and what would you eliminate?
BTW, Craig, your admission of wanting Canada to be a Christian nation (whatever that means) has lost you pretty much any respect I had for you. I think it is very sad you "think" that way. I thought you were more progressive than that. |
|
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Regarding the German Armies belt buckles:
Gott mit uns (meaning God With Us) was the motto of the royal house of Prussia, and part of the military emblem of Prussia and later Germany.
During the Second World War, Wehrmacht soldiers wore this slogan on their belt buckles, as opposed to members of the Waffen SS, who wore the motto Meine Ehre heißt Treue (my honor is loyalty). |
|
|
|
|
Sheila
Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 556
votes: 16
Location: Central Alberta
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I think the most positive influence on Canada has been freemasons. Before you freaks go all crazy and call this a conspiracy theory, check out the history. Recently our Freemasons celebrated their 100th anniversary. The local paper even had articles about their history. To sum it up, they take good men and make them better. I think this has gotten Canada farther ahead than any religion ever could. |
|
|
|
|
FF_Canuck
Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 3360
votes: 17
Location: Southern Alberta
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I think this discussion might be more productive if all parties avoided 'reductio ad Hitler'... I'm interested in BEAJ's vision of a secular nation, as well as Craig's vision of a Christian one. I'm not sure they're that different when it comes to broad strokes. |
|
|
|
|
Craig
Site Admin
Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 4415
votes: 36
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| theatheistjew wrote: | | BTW, Craig, your admission of wanting Canada to be a Christian nation (whatever that means) has lost you pretty much any respect I had for you. I think it is very sad you "think" that way. I thought you were more progressive than that. |
How arrogant of you to think that I care about how you think of me. Arrogance is a trademark of atheists. |
|
|
|
|
Craig
Site Admin
Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 4415
votes: 36
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| theatheistjew wrote: | | intolerance towards homosexuals |
Intolerance towards homosexuality.
| Quote: | | favoring one religion over others...should I go on? |
Not letting women drive or laugh in public. Not allowing women to sing music. Hmmm - so similar!!!
| Quote: | | Hitler didn't like organized religion, but the Nazis and the rest of the German army embraced the Catholic God. They had something to do with God written on their belt buckles. Hardly atheistic. Hitler used the countries overwhelming majority of Catholics and played on it. |
That's quite a stretch.
| Quote: | | It was the religious writings and interpretations that the Jews killed Jesus and all the rest of the stuff the Catholics used from the bible to make the Jew a villain that led to the German people accepting the atrocities committed on fellow human beings. |
And it took how many other CHRISTIAN countries to stop Hitler? LOL - this is too easy.
| Quote: | | Again, you failed to define what exactly you mean by a Christian nation. Is it possible that you can define it for me. What would change that isn't happening right now, and what would you eliminate? |
I want to live in a country with people who share my values. Sharia law is not consistent with my values. We still are a Christian country. We are not far from where I want this country to be. I just need to stop people like you from changing it. |
|
|
|
|
Craig
Site Admin
Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 4415
votes: 36
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| FF_Canuck wrote: | | I think this discussion might be more productive if all parties avoided 'reductio ad Hitler'... I'm interested in BEAJ's vision of a secular nation, as well as Craig's vision of a Christian one. I'm not sure they're that different when it comes to broad strokes. |
Hmmm. I wonder who introduced Hitler into this discussion :?: |
|
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Craig wrote: | | theatheistjew wrote: | | BTW, Craig, your admission of wanting Canada to be a Christian nation (whatever that means) has lost you pretty much any respect I had for you. I think it is very sad you "think" that way. I thought you were more progressive than that. |
How arrogant of you to think that I care about how you think of me. Arrogance is a trademark of atheists. |
It is obvious to anyone here that I didn't think you care. I put out that statement for the rest of the board to see.
Arrogance :P
Christians who want a Christian nation are nothing but insecure control freaks. I still don't see a definition of what a Christian nation is though Craig.
Since you are the one who mentioned you want one, what exactly is it you want? |
|
|
|
|
SFrank85
Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2269
votes: 4
Location: Toronto - Scarborough Southwest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| theatheistjew wrote: |
Hitler didn't like organized religion, but the Nazis and the rest of the German army embraced the Catholic God. They had something to do with God written on their belt buckles. Hardly atheistic. Hitler used the countries overwhelming majority of Catholics and played on it.
As for his personal beliefs, he felt that Aryans were a special creation of God. Again, this has nothing to do with atheism either.
|
For one thing, you need to realise that Hitler hated the Jews because of his perverse views that the Jews had caused Germany to lose the First World War. You really need to know the basics of your history before you start lies about Hitler being Christian. You also need to learn that Bismarck’s Prussia had nothing to do with Hitler’s Germany. As a matter of fact, it was Christians who saved the Jews from the Nazi regime by hiding them in churches. Hitler also came to power, never winning a majority, and he had nothing to do with winning the catholic or Christian voters. You are naive to think this, and you need to know the history of the Reichstag elections in the Weimar Republic in the 1920’s and 1930’s.
Let’s take a look at atheist regimes around the world… The Soviet Union, North Korea, China, Cuba... Is there not a pattern here? |
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
Page 2 of 5
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Is A Secular World A Sane World |
|
phpBBCopyright 2001, 2005 phpBB |
|
