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FascistLibertarian





Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 1092
Reputation: 30.1Reputation: 30.1Reputation: 30.1
votes: 14
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What am I basing this on?
Deforestation?
The fact that the world is going through its 5th major extiction?
That by the time I die there wont be very many large mamels outside of the zoo?
That there are too many people consuming too much?
That our society is based on consumption and overconsumption?

If you dont think there are major environmental problems that the world is no where near solving I got a bridge in San Fran I could sell you.
Honestly, keep your head in the sand and believe whatever you want, its nto going to change the fact that we are screwed and captialism will not save us at all.
:P
strong conservative





Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 35
Reputation: 59
votes: 1
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:55 pm    Post subject: Socialism Reply with quote

Consider this:

CO2 is a TRACE GAS that makes up just 0.03% of the Earth's atmosphere. Saying it is causing global warming is a stretch. If the world is warming, it is much more likely a result of water vapour and increased sun intensity.

After the winter and the summer we're having, I'm proud to be a skeptic. Remember after Hurricane Katrina when we were told there would be more hurricanes of increaesd intensity? WHERE ARE THEY?

Saying "I want to believe" doesn't work. Correlation does not causation make.
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 2463
Reputation: 131.2
votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The fact that the world is going through its 5th major extiction?
That by the time I die there wont be very many large mamels outside of the zoo?


Actually these are really good points. Why is it that everwhere man goes, extiction seems to follow. Is there anything we can do about it. Or if we try to do anything about it does it automatically make us leftwing.
hosertohoosier





Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 13


PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree with the premise that there are no or few environmental problems worth worrying about. Does that make me an environmentalist and therefore a socialist? I would suggest not. In fact it is easy to conceive of an argument that is both conservative and environmentalist.

I make the case that environmental issues are a property rights issue. There are many scarce commodities in the world - increasingly, clean air or a stable climate are joining that list. The problem with envisioning these as commodities is that they are owned collectively by all people by their very nature. There is no feasible way to divide it up - a fact that results in a collective action problem of a very large scale. The failure of the Kyoto accord is a national collective action problem (it is easier to free-ride on other countries), but that failure occurs at the domestic level too. When a factory spews out pollution, it takes away from MY air - they get the profit, I get black lung. However, it is not feasible to deal with this kind of problem in the way I would deal with a similar problem of a public bad (say, if my neighbour liked to sing "I kissed a girl" in an out-of-tune voice at 3 am). Normally, you can deal with things like that in courts, or with side-payments. However, when it comes to the environment, those negatively affected are so great in number that it is hard to work out that kind of a solution.

What has to happen is for individuals to pay the cost of the negative externalities of the pollution they produce. When they start viewing air as an input in the production process, like lumber is for a chair factory, the market can start innovating ways of reducing the use of those inputs. Indeed, the kinds of environmental problems that are tightly geographically located, like water pollution, have been dealt with fairly well - you can safely swim in Lake Ontario, even right in Toronto.

So how do you create markets in these sorts of things? Well, as I see it we own the air collectively, which means the government, which operates on behalf of all of us, owns the air and has the right to sell it - compensating us for the proceeds. Permits allowing pollution up to a certain point can be auctioned off to private enterprises over a certain size - not necessarily to reduce pollution, but to ensure that individuals are compromised for the public harm that it causes.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
Reputation: 104
votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hosertohoosier wrote:
In fact it is easy to conceive of an argument that is both conservative and environmentalist.

Mulroney was recognized as the "greenest" PM for a reason.

The link between socialism and environmentalism has nothing to do with concern for the environment whatsoever. It has everything to do with socialists morphing their anti-capitalist desires for a nanny state and wealth redistribution into the "save the planet" rhetoric which typifies the Kyoto Cult adherents.

Even your suggestion of the government (on behalf of all of us) "owning" the air and selling it plays into their scheme. Do you suppose for a moment that the proceeds from such sales would be used to reduce taxes or would it end up in the slush fund paying for more social programs, arts funding, Status of Women funding, HRC funding, etc. while the productive people remain tax slaves?

-Mac
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