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Wallace





Joined: 09 May 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FascistLibertarian wrote:
Well the environment is messed up and getting worse. Global warming is only one small issue.
The only solutions are radical and wont happen.
What will happen is the world will get worse, things will get more expensive, and the rich will be able to pay to avoid the crummyness while everyone else will have a gradually and occasionally quickly decline in standard of living.


What are basing this on? nothing of this sort is happening, don't buy into the socialist dogma.
Cool Blue





Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 3130
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votes: 10
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have such a bleak outlook. I believe in capitalism.

For example, if gasoline gets so expensive that only the rich can afford to drive, some entrepreneur is going to figure out how to make an alternative that the masses can afford. In fact, I believe electric cars are less than 10 years away from mass adoption.
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 2463
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votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't have such a bleak outlook. I believe in capitalism.

For example, if gasoline gets so expensive that only the rich can afford to drive, some entrepreneur is going to figure out how to make an alternative that the masses can afford. In fact, I believe electric cars are less than 10 years away from mass adoption.


You must have went to school in Austria!

I wholeheartedly agree. :D
Swift





Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 57
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An all electric cat has some problems. As an example, if I had one of the new Teslas that will be available soon it would take me ten or eleven hours of driving time to get to London. However I would have to have four recharges totalling fourteen hours. We could, of course, make gas powered cars much cheaper than today and they would also use much less gas (probably less than a third of todays most efficient car.) The only problem is that they wouldn't be street legal.

For those of you claiming that Harper can get India and China to reduce CO2 emissions, you are dreaming. Both have stated quite clearly that they have no intention of even slowing their 10% plus growth rate. That growth rate will at least double their emissions in only seven years. If they continue this growth until 2030 they will emit three times the current total world amount of CO2. Since there are an increasing amount of scientific papers being published that are questioning various facets of the AGW theory, and Mother Nature, herself, showing she has had enough of this global warming for a while at least, I don't think India and China are going to be in any hurry to slow their growth down.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are using way less gas in our cars today than we were even ten years ago. But people want their power to, so generally those advances in efficiency have been gobbled up in more horsepower and torque. Super efficient, but under powered cars, are basically unacceptable to people. There have also been some weight gains for safety, like side curtain air bags, all wheel drive, and stuff like that.

A 70 horse power, 100 miles to the gallon, bare bones (no A/C, no ABS, no airbags, standard transmission, no power or automatic anything) car simply has no market in North America. Environmentalists would not buy it, poor people would not buy it, rich people would not buy.

Quote:
The average horsepower for new cars has risen steadily since 1985, both in absolute terms and in terms of horsepower per 100 pounds of vehicle weight. A 1981 Honda Accord had a base engine with just 75 horsepower. A base model 2008 Accord has a 177 horsepower four-cylinder engine, and you can buy a six-cylinder model with 275 horsepower. As recently as the mid-1990s, that would have made the current Accord more powerful than a Cadillac Eldorado.
http://finance.yahoo.com/insur.....Horsepower

PS. Even the Smart ForTwo is boasting a bigger more powerful engine this year, if you needed more proof that people want fast cars that go zoom when you step on it.
Cool Blue





Joined: 21 Sep 2006
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Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
An all electric cat has some problems. As an example, if I had one of the new Teslas that will be available soon it would take me ten or eleven hours of driving time to get to London. However I would have to have four recharges totalling fourteen hours


In the short-term, once electric vehicles are commonly available, they won't be used much for long distance travel. Those who do make regular trips like that will probably still depend on gasoline (either as the engine or as a back-up to the electric motor) or they will rent a gasoline vehicle for the trip, or possible take the train.

Most people travel under 100Km a day so electric vehicles that can handle that can handle the vast majority of daily usage.

The electric vehicles coming down the pipe in a few years appear to be able to do between 120 - 150 Kms on one charge (6-8 hours for a full charge, 2 hours for an 80% charge).

Electric vehicles with a secondary power back-up, like the proposed Chevy Volt, will be able to extend their range. The concept for the Volt so far would give consumers the option of what type of back-up they'd like, gasoline, diesel, natural gas, propane or possible hydrogen fuel cell.

Speaking of the Smart TwoFour, they are currently testing an electric version of it in London, UK which has a top speed of 110 Kms per hour and a range of 120Km.

Another neat thing about contemporary electric vehicles is that they have wicked acceleration.
Cool Blue





Joined: 21 Sep 2006
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Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was reading an article about dying industries and one of them was the auto repair industry.

Some are predicting that the Mom and Pop auto repair shop will die out over the next couple of decades because of three reasons:

1) declining market due to better built and longer lasting vehicles

2) greater competition from big-name service providers, Canadian Tire, Walmart, Midas, who can offer discounted fees due to volume (my parents own a garage and they actually lose money on oil changes because they can't purchase the oil at the price and volume that Walmart does)

3) the industry is worried that electric vehicles will reduce demand since they don't need as much upkeep (no oilchanges, no tune ups etc) and have less parts to breakdown
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wonder where all the batteries for all these electric vehicles will come from?

PS. Also, I wonder where all the toxic junk from depleted batteries will go?
Cool Blue





Joined: 21 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Wonder where all the batteries for all these electric vehicles will come from?


Most contemporary models are using lithium-ion batteries.

The early Tesla prototypes were actually using hundreds of laptop batteries.

Quote:
PS. Also, I wonder where all the toxic junk from depleted batteries will go?



That's definetely a problem but from what I've read replacing the batteries every 5 years or so is still beneficial compared to all the gasoline and replacement parts that current cars go through over the same period.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool Blue wrote:
Quote:
Wonder where all the batteries for all these electric vehicles will come from?


Most contemporary models are using lithium-ion batteries.

The early Tesla prototypes were actually using hundreds of laptop batteries.

Quote:
PS. Also, I wonder where all the toxic junk from depleted batteries will go?



That's definetely a problem but from what I've read replacing the batteries every 5 years or so is still beneficial compared to all the gasoline and replacement parts that current cars go through over the same period.
No seriously, where is all the lithium going to come from? Just the Tesla by itself is straining world production of lithium...
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.azom.com/News.asp?NewsID=7648

Quote:
The vast majority of world's supply of lithium carbonate, the mineral used to make lithium-based batteries for cellphones and laptop computers is found in just four countries: China, Chile, Argentina, and Bolivia, reports William Tahil, director of research for Meridian International Research in a newly released white paper entitled, The Trouble with Lithium.

In an exclusive telephone interview with EV World, Tahil contends that all of the world's current production of lithium salts, which are extracted from brine lakes high in the Andes and Tibet, is being utilized for small electronics and other industrial applications, and while production capacity will double in the next fews years, the industry simply can't produce enough lithium to build the hundreds of millions of large-format batteries needed to power the electric cars and plug-in hybrids of the future.


PS. And since lithium is not produced domestically, would we not simply be trading in oil dependence for lithium dependence?
Cool Blue





Joined: 21 Sep 2006
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Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lithium supply may be a problem, however as I said before I believe in the ability of capitalism to overcome that eventually.
FF_Canuck





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
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Location: Southern Alberta

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the key is to look at the electric car as just one tool in a very big tool-box. It has a place in limited applications, but we won't be seeing a large reduction in petroleum-based transportation any time soon. For anyone not located 20 km of their workplace, or any occupation that requires lots of driving or powerful vehicles, pure gasoline and diesel are the only viable options. I honestly believe the best way to ensure stable, environmentally positive energy supply is to reduce regulation and stop subsidies - market forces will find solutions, if we stay out of the way.
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
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Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think they should make an electric car with a gas powered generator.

It would appeal to enviromentalists and we wouldn't have to wait 11 hours to recharge. 8)
Michaelcc





Joined: 06 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my Blog:

The End of Socialism, and the Emergence of 'Neo-Socialist Environmentalism'

Ever since socialism in Britain was mortally wounded in the 1980s by Margaret Thacher, traditionally left-wing parties have re-branded themselves into the "Third Way". We all heard former socialist parties describe themselves as "fiscally responsible" and "socially progressive" (a fancy term for saying that they ditched socialism). Western left-wing parties from Italy to Australia had thrown off their socialist economic policies, and had become nothing but social liberals, advocating things like greater human rights, multiculturalism and in some countries, same-sex marriage and the legalization of marijuana. No one talks openly of nationalization of industry anymore. In fact many observe that there is no longer any major difference between the centre-left's and the centre-right's economic policies.

However, with the sudden emergence of environmentalism (actually climate change) as the new buzz word, the left has found a new ideology to replace socialism. We are now being told to cut back on consumption, companies are being regulated to be more 'environmentally friendly', and new taxes (carbon tax anyone?) are being proposed to 'combat' climate change. It is becoming increasingly evident that socialism has been re-branded into environmentalism. As a result of this, the environmentalism of the twenty-first century is no longer the tree hugging fringe movement of the past, but a neo-socialist economic model. Instead of using the power of the unions, and inadequate working conditions as the justification for economic regulation, the left now justifies economic regulation as necessary to 'combat' climate change. The economic left, recently thought reduced to irrelevancy by the death blows of the neo-liberals in the 80s and 90s, and the neo-conservatives in the 2000s, have returned to relevancy by transforming environmentalism into an economic model. If the right does not realize this, neo-socialist environmentalism will threaten to destroy the free-market, just like socialism did in the 1970s.

http://www.michael-cc.blogspot.com/
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