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crazymamma





Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 1011
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votes: 14
Location: The kitchen

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wallace writes:

Quote:
Well if you believe in democracy so much, than you should be behind me. If government is supposed to reflect the wishes of the people, than what's the point of coercing them? Shouldn't their actions without walls, be the same as with them if we built the walls ourselves?


Unfortunately for you and your Ilk Wallace democracy does reign supreme here in Canada, The idea of democracy is the majority rules. I don't like it much but there you have it. You are like a person in the wilderness yelling "Mommy? mommy? I don't need no mommy" , while all the rest that are actually lost are screaming to have their mommies come and save them. quickly and with out any ugliness attached. They are willing to give up almost anything in order to have their vision realized.

Why do we have the governments coercing folks to do what they want? Because most of the Mommy lovers want the government to make you behave and think in line with them, it makes them more "comfortable" knowing that you can't really be an individual, change anything about the country or your life in any substantial manner. It makes them feel safe and keeps their intellectual/moral superiority complex crowns firmly attached to their non-thinking heads.

That being said I do whole heartedly disagree with the notion of mercenaries and to certain extent on your views of education.

Me thinks you are an unfortunate man ( sorry for the assumption) that was born a couple of hundred years too late that would have been the type that helped found our country opening up the wild wild west so to speak, you have my condolences.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FascistLibertarian wrote:
Quote:
Why does the government have to be involved in all those things?


Transportation because its a money loser and its important we have things like subways, buses, trains, and planes as well as a decently maintained road and highway system.

Security because I dont trust private security forces to fight wars for Canada nor do I feel they are accountable enough to be the police. Also if the state gives up its ability to project force (as only having private security would do) it gives up its ability to enforce laws.

Healthcare and education because not all Canadians can afford private alternatives.

Quote:
That isn't to say though that there isn't room for private sector involvement or that free market concepts like competition can't be applied.


I totally agree there should be private alternatives.

Quote:
I don't see why we should regulate hospitals.


So because you are in favour of allowing private hospitals you believe that public ones should be shut down?

Quote:
Regulations in all sectors can be done away with, by having private consumer watch groups place their stamp of approval on things.


Disagree totally. This is the governments job. Otherwise I could open a private hisptial with no experince or dump mercury into lakes.

Quote:
People should have the right to take their kids to whatever kind of school they want.


So if I want to start a school stating that it is okay for kids to have sex with adults, that jews arent human and should be killed, that people who speak french are inferor and should be killed, how to make bombs, shoot guns and attack defended positions in small groups, and part of the school year invoved cage matches between 12 and 5 year olds, that would be fine under your system?

And if people dont have enough money to send their kids to a private school or a private hospital they are just out of luck because they are poor?

Quote:
I am in favor of mercenary academies and the government can hire from those. And if any organizations concern themselves with foreign wars, they can hire individuals from our private military organizations.


Cuz that worked so great for the romans and with blackwater in iraq. Raises costs AND decreases accountability!

Quote:
I am in favor of private police forces, they can be hired to force whatever laws they want provided they do not violate the non aggression principal or keep people from leaving to go to another town. The courts in most of these cities and towns can be private too


So who would they be accountable to?
Since they need no training or regulation under your system what is to prevent abuse of power?
Have you ever thought that transportation being a money loser has something to do with the management? Just wondering, you seem to assume that anything government is involved in is being done right.

What prevents the abuse of power now? Seems to me, and this is just one current example, that the human rights tribunals are abusing power plenty, bringing down the force of the state on wrong thinkers.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
Reputation: 104
votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crazymamma wrote:
I gotta move!

As much as I dislike quoting socialists, even a broken clock is usually right once a day...

Quote:
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.~George Bernard Shaw


Although everyone tends to focus on the higher levels of government, the bitter reality is municipal government has more direct impact on our daily lives than provincial or federal governments do. So why do we allow the useless pandering and ideological gobbledygook to go on? Use your vote, folks... dump the socialism at it's foundation!!!

-Mac
FF_Canuck





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 3360
Reputation: 73.4
votes: 17
Location: Southern Alberta

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
Although everyone tends to focus on the higher levels of government, the bitter reality is municipal government has more direct impact on our daily lives than provincial or federal governments do. So why do we allow the useless pandering and ideological gobbledygook to go on? Use your vote, folks... dump the socialism at it's foundation!!!


Exactly... not coincidentally, municipal governments are also more swiftly impacted and changeable by the action of their electorate. So the relative efficiency and lean nature of my local government is not an accident of geography, but a reflection of my neighbours beliefs and attitudes.

Speaking in general terms, everyone can and usually will disagree about a great many things ... but the desire to do as we please and resolve things on our own is pretty commonly held.

And crazymamma, while I won't share my location out of privacy concerns (nothing personal, of course), I think you could reasonably expect the same type of government anywhere in the country where the jurisdiction serves a population under 200,000 ... personal observations may vary.

Edit: I've got no illusions about how relatively easy it would be for resourceful individuals to figure out where I'm from and other things about me ... I just don't want to make it any easier than necessary.
crazymamma





Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 1011
Reputation: 71.8
votes: 14
Location: The kitchen

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
crazymamma wrote:
I gotta move!

As much as I dislike quoting socialists, even a broken clock is usually right once a day...


Ummm.......I'm so glad my meds have kicked in so I don't read the above as saying that I'm a bit of a nut bar that just accidently happened upon a good idea.....for a change. :wink:

Quote:
Quote:
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.~George Bernard Shaw


Although everyone tends to focus on the higher levels of government, the bitter reality is municipal government has more direct impact on our daily lives than provincial or federal governments do. So why do we allow the useless pandering and ideological gobbledygook to go on? Use your vote, folks... dump the socialism at it's foundation!!!

-Mac


I know it, but boy try tell other folks around here that they even need to go out and vote. City politics is huge as it directly effects the afford-ability of housing, property restrictions, use of community and the like. I don't get the lack of interest.
crazymamma





Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 1011
Reputation: 71.8
votes: 14
Location: The kitchen

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FF writes:


Quote:
And crazymamma, while I won't share my location out of privacy concerns (nothing personal, of course),


Nothing personal, no harm no foul, I really wasn't serious, hence the " on my planet called Ottawa" starting to the next sentence. Everyone needs a certain anonymity in order to post freely, I understand. One of the reasons I never really commit to the obscene number of children that I have.

Quote:
I think you could reasonably expect the same type of government anywhere in the country where the jurisdiction serves a population under 200,000 ... personal observations may vary.


Ah yes I remember those days before we got sucked into the city by that magical process called amalgamation. Those were the heady days of freedom from small bureaucratic tyranny. :wink:
Wallace





Joined: 09 May 2008
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That being said I do whole heartedly disagree with the notion of mercenaries and to certain extent on your views of education.


Well you have a right to. Now while I feel that a well rounded education is idealistic, it is impractical. Some kids are smarter than others, some are stronger than others, others are more creative. Some children simply aren't worth the investment, it's sad but true. The finances of the parents offset this, and richer parents can compensate for their children's lack of exceptionalism if they want to spend their money that way.

But most children are unexceptional, despite their parents telling them they CAN grow up to be astronauts or presidents, and this gives them expectations beyond either there's or their parent's means. Not that there isn't room for charity, but state funding is "involuntary volunteering". And businesses do give out scholarships, and would do it more so if they had more money to spend.

Honestly, sesame street ruined an entire generation.
Muppet: Who's special? You are.
10 years later, kid with green hair and nose ring.
Youth: I'M BLOODY SPECIAL!

Most parents want their children to succeed. Businesses nowadays are catching on the the idea that more educated workers are better workers and often will let their employees go back to school and may even pay for it. Where there is demand, there will be supply. Private schools would become more prevalent if they didn't have to compete with the public schools. You will find most people like to talk more than they like to listen, that's why are ear holes are smaller than our mouth hole. Nowadays you can learn just about any narrowly defined subject on the internet, and they teach it for free in their spare time, and would do this more so if they were paid for it.

Now I think that people might just be caught up on the difference between mercenary and military, they really are almost the same thing. Now military training is a valued commodity. There are people who have it who will never enter the army. But such highly trained individuals are valued. Now someone might bring up the possibility of them going rogue, and frankly I'm not too worried. Case-in point: Osama bin Laden received his training courtesy of the CIA. Now he seems like a natural born terrorist, if his training was private the only difference would be he spent his own money instead of that of the american taxpayers.

Quote:
Have you ever thought that transportation being a money loser has something to do with the management? Just wondering, you seem to assume that anything government is involved in is being done right.


Well the thing is, with any socialist organization there is no way to know if they are doing it right. There is no means of productions, they simply demand money and accomplish their goals at an arbitrary basis. There has to be competitors and choice for the consumer to decide the best of the bunch. And if anyone is supported by subsidies, that business has an unfair advantage that was taken from people via force (or at least the threat of force). I heard before that if socialism won, there would still need to be one capitalistic island, otherwise we wouldn't know what things cost, but even then prices would only be based on their preferences.
FascistLibertarian





Joined: 23 Feb 2007
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Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How would we deal with SARS or mad cow without the government?
Juts wondering, since clearly health and environmental canada arent needed.
Wallace





Joined: 09 May 2008
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(minor explicit language warning)
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=blRCh-EDuDs

The Free Health Insurance Companies should pay to keep any crisis under control, while the free media keeps an eye on them.

On the environment thing
http://www.bloggingtories.ca/forums/topic5361.html
crazymamma





Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 1011
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votes: 14
Location: The kitchen

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wallace wrote:
Quote:
That being said I do whole heartedly disagree with the notion of mercenaries and to certain extent on your views of education.


Well you have a right to.


Well thank you for your permission.

Quote:
Now while I feel that a well rounded education is idealistic, it is impractical. Some kids are smarter than others, some are stronger than others, others are more creative.


Yes we all have our unique talents.

Quote:
Some children simply aren't worth the investment, it's sad but true.


Sad that you have that opinion, do you have an children unexceptional or other wise?

Quote:
The finances of the parents offset this, and richer parents can compensate for their children's lack of exceptionalism if they want to spend their money that way.

But most children are unexceptional, despite their parents telling them they CAN grow up to be astronauts or presidents, and this gives them expectations beyond either there's or their parent's means. Not that there isn't room for charity, but state funding is "involuntary volunteering". And businesses do give out scholarships, and would do it more so if they had more money to spend.


Firmly believe that most children raise themselves up to the heights they are allowed to, low expectations = low achievement.

Only rich parents will be able to afford to help their children that have development delays, learning disabilities? A lot of lower income families are so busy trying to keep a roof over head and food on the table that they do not have the time nor might I add the expertise to diagnose a bona fide learning disorder let alone design a plan to put that kids education on proper footing.

Quote:
Honestly, sesame street ruined an entire generation.
Muppet: Who's special? You are.
10 years later, kid with green hair and nose ring.
Youth: I'M BLOODY SPECIAL!


Green hair and a nose ring shows that a child is a problem? ungrateful? Ruined? It's part of the development process to rebel in these minor ways.

Quote:
Most parents want their children to succeed. Businesses nowadays are catching on the the idea that more educated workers are better workers and often will let their employees go back to school and may even pay for it. Where there is demand, there will be supply. Private schools would become more prevalent if they didn't have to compete with the public schools. You will find most people like to talk more than they like to listen, that's why are ear holes are smaller than our mouth hole. Nowadays you can learn just about any narrowly defined subject on the internet, and they teach it for free in their spare time, and would do this more so if they were paid for it.


In case you haven't noticed there is a lot of drivel on the net. I wouldn't use it except maybe for advice on how to train a dog to defecate outside.

Quote:
Now I think that people might just be caught up on the difference between mercenary and military, they really are almost the same thing. Now military training is a valued commodity. There are people who have it who will never enter the army. But such highly trained individuals are valued. Now someone might bring up the possibility of them going rogue, and frankly I'm not too worried. Case-in point: Osama bin Laden received his training courtesy of the CIA. Now he seems like a natural born terrorist, if his training was private the only difference would be he spent his own money instead of that of the american taxpayers.


I'm thinking the difference is like being married to a wonderful partner and renting a prostitute for a hummer. One is a satisfying long term relationship with no divided loyalties, full partners in a goal where the other is well............ you get the picture.
Wallace





Joined: 09 May 2008
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I'm going to ignore parts of what you said because they were intrusive in my private life or were emotional rhetoric without debate substance.

Quote:
Sad that you have that opinion, do you have an children unexceptional or other wise?


Parents are the lasts ones to realize if their kids are stupid, dumb or ugly.

Quote:
Firmly believe that most children raise themselves up to the heights they are allowed to, low expectations = low achievement.


Well go ahead and use that strategy, everyone has their own style.

Quote:
Only rich parents will be able to afford to help their children that have development delays, learning disabilities? A lot of lower income families are so busy trying to keep a roof over head and food on the table that they do not have the time nor might I add the expertise to diagnose a bona fide learning disorder let alone design a plan to put that kids education on proper footing.


Well the government intrusions seem to be the biggest cause of wealth disparity, the free market will help close this gap. But anyways, the state has no business taking people's money by force for someone's bleeding heart. Without government inefficiency, charitable organizations will grow in strength. There are a lot of selfless people who assume everyone else is selfish an think they can spend other people's money better than they can. But learning disorders are no different than a lack of ability, and are no excuse to give them an unfair advantage, unless you want to personally with your own resources.

But kids are selfish these days, and don't tell me there is no information on the internet other than pet care.

Well since I believe that consenting adults can sign into whatever social contract they like, I see the devision between prostitution and marriage narrowing a little bit.
Craig
Site Admin




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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wallace wrote:
Orly, I'm being unreasonable, care to back up that statement, or should we just accept that on face value?


Oh - so you are a tough guy.

I wasn't calling you unreasonable. I was assuming that you fell into the reasonable group (but now I'm having second thoughts).
Craig
Site Admin




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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wallace wrote:
Quote:
Under your ideal system could I kill my neibour and take her house?


And what little socialist policy do we have now to prevent this? I bought my private security system.


So you consider law and order policies to be "socialist"??? Authoritarian maybe but certainly not socialist.

Life in prison. Death penalty. Couple of pretty good deterrents. Sure a gun is a good deterrent too but I have a family and I'd prefer not to play my gun vs. my neighbor's gun with them around.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
Reputation: 104
votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crazymamma wrote:
Ummm.......I'm so glad my meds have kicked in so I don't read the above as saying that I'm a bit of a nut bar that just accidently happened upon a good idea.....for a change. :wink:

Perhaps I should have put Shaw's quote before my jab?

-Mac
Wallace





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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Oh - so you are a tough guy.

I wasn't calling you unreasonable. I was assuming that you fell into the reasonable group (but now I'm having second thoughts).


You said; "Besides, you can't separate economics from other aspects of our society. And most reasonable people acknowledge that there is a valid role for government to play." I took that as you saying that I am unreasonable, and that there is a role for the government, I would like for you to back that statement, unless I am misinterpreting it.

Quote:
So you consider law and order policies to be "socialist"??? Authoritarian maybe but certainly not socialist.


If I wanted to I could kill my neighbor and take his house right now, the police wouldn't "prevent" it.

Socialist = Authoritarian
But I'm saying that all things the government currently does could be done better through the free market. The private police will catch the individual, and the free market courts will try him.

I tend not to like the death penalty, killing in self defense is another story. Individuals are worth more alive than dead or imprisoned anyways. But I believe contracts can be made between the victim, the criminal, the court, and a third party so that the victim is compensated, and the criminal has to work off what they've done. Failing that there is always the death penalty.
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