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Craig
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:35 pm    Post subject: on the topic of extremists... Reply with quote

There is a reason this is in the religion forum but I'll let you connect the dots.

The term "Nazi" has become synonymous with evil. But the reality is that most Nazis weren't employed at concentration camps and most weren't even aware they existed. Millions of Germans were Nazis. Millions. Most of them were what you would call "moderates". Does this excuse Nazism. Should we not attack it because many, if not most, adherents were moderates?

What if it was a religion and not a political party? Would that change things?
Cool Blue





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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of Nazi members didn't even believe in the party, they just joined because that was what you had to do to get ahead in life at the time.
mrsocko





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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Nazis where a political party. They had policies that included genocide. I don't think rounding up Jews in public hid much. I don't think you can call yourself a moderate if you approve of, if not outright genocide then the rounding up of fellow citizens who are never heard from again. Most Germans knew that something bad was happening to these people and approved.

Nazism should be condemned because it was the engine which drove the world to it's darkest days. Anyone who wants to be a Nazi today is an extremist idiot and should be treated as such(as long as his human rights aren't violated :lol: )

If you want to talk about the merits of fascism I think that would be a closer approximation to a religion. Just like talking about communism. These 2 idiologies encompass alot more than a specific party lead by an ideologue can.

This ties into The Iran/muslim extremist situation. Is it due to The Muslim religion or is it due to specific countries with political ideologies with axes to grind over past treatment by the West, in the guise of the Muslim religion.

Supposedly in the Middle ages parts of Europe florished under Muslim rule. What's changed since then.

I've heard it said the the Muslim religion is a religion of peace. It would be good to hear some quotes from the Koran to prove this. To bad Winston got run.
Cool Blue





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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
They had policies that included genocide.


It wasn't obvious right from the start though. The anti-semitism was there, and a lot of people, not just Germans approved. Think of our own (Liberal) government who's immigration minister said "No jews is too many".

Remember, Hitler wasn't awarded Time magazine's person of the year award for nothing. A LOT of people (especially socialists) liked him in the beginning.
Craig
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
They had policies that included genocide.


Did they have formal policies or was just implied? I believe the Koran has a formal policy on this topic.

Quote:
I don't think you can call yourself a moderate if you approve of, if not outright genocide then the rounding up of fellow citizens who are never heard from again.


What if you don't approve of it but still choose to be a Nazi because you approve of their other policies?

Quote:
This ties into The Iran/muslim extremist situation. Is it due to The Muslim religion or is it due to specific countries with political ideologies with axes to grind over past treatment by the West, in the guise of the Muslim religion.


Isn't that what Nazism was about - especially the third time around???

Quote:
To bad Winston got run.


Got run? What does that mean?
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool Blue wrote:
Quote:
They had policies that included genocide.


It wasn't obvious right from the start though. The anti-semitism was there, and a lot of people, not just Germans approved. Think of our own (Liberal) government who's immigration minister said "No jews is too many".

Remember, Hitler wasn't awarded Time magazine's person of the year award for nothing. A LOT of people (especially socialists) liked him in the beginning.
I think the modern equivalent of the Nazi phenomenon would be something like Obama-mania. As mentioned, he was times man of the year, he enjoyed popularity in most countries, his ideas had currency. Before the war, Hitler was probably the most popular and well known political leader the world over.
crazymamma





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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm thinking that if you join up with a movement that has the following platform, you know exactly what you are getting into.

Germans may have not known what extremes their Fuhrer went to but they had to know what his ideology was, some turned their heads in fear I'm sure and the need to take care of themselves and their loved ones. But they knew and were just as responsible as the soldier who turned on the Gas.IMNSHO

The full text of the 25 point program from Wiki.

We demand the unification of all Germans in the Greater Germany on the basis of the right of self-determination of people.

We demand equality of rights for the German people in respect to the other nations; abrogation of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.

We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people, and colonization for our surplus population.

Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race.

Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest, and must be under the authority of legislation for foreigners.

The right to determine matters concerning administration and law belongs only to the citizen. Therefore we demand that every public office, of any sort whatsoever, whether in the Reich, the county or municipality, be filled only by citizens. We combat the corrupting parliamentary economy, office-holding only according to party inclinations without consideration of character or abilities.

We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.

Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since the [2 August 1914], be forced immediately to leave the Reich.

All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.
The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all Consequently we demand:
Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of rent-slavery.
In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).

We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.

We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.

We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.

We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.

We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, Schieber and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.

We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.

The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.

The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.

We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.

We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that: a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race: b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the State to be published. They may not be printed in the German language: c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden.

We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.


We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: The good of the state before the good of the individual.[10] For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.




Yes I do agree that this was a form of religion, just as the GW zealots are religious freaks in their own right.
Cool Blue





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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That document is definetely xenophobic, but that sentiment was popular all over the world at the time; however, there isn't anything in there about genocide.

Plus, if you examine the document there is a lot of "progressive" policies there which appealed to many people, especially among the left/"progressives".

In fact, I bet if you removed all the stuff dealing with race, a lot of Canadians today would probably vote for a party with such a platform!
Craig
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool Blue wrote:
That document is definetely xenophobic, but that sentiment was popular all over the world at the time; however, there isn't anything in there about genocide.


Unlike the Koran which does advocate genocide.

One gets a free pass while the other is constantly vilified.
crazymamma





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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool Blue wrote:
That document is definetely xenophobic, but that sentiment was popular all over the world at the time; however, there isn't anything in there about genocide.

Plus, if you examine the document there is a lot of "progressive" policies there which appealed to many people, especially among the left/"progressives".

In fact, I bet if you removed all the stuff dealing with race, a lot of Canadians today would probably vote for a party with such a platform!


I have to agree that it could be translated to today's left. So many simularities!

However if you give the government the power to take over industry, news, property, allow a stated predjudice to any non-aryan, in your interest, you are asking for it.
Sheila





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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
Unlike the Koran which does advocate genocide.

Unlike the bible which advocates genocide. After Moses came from the mountain with the 10 commandments, he was outraged that his people were idolizing a golden calf. Didn't Moses demand that his people kill each other?
Cool Blue





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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an updated and Canadianized version minus the overtly xenophobic parts.

Now tell me that Canadians wouldn't vote for this; it practically sounds like it could be coming from the NDP or Trudeau Liberals!



We propose the unification of all Canadians from sea to sea to sea, on the basis of the right of national sovereignty.

We propose equality of rights for all Canadians.

Non-citizens may live in Canada as a permanent resident, and must comply with Canadian legislations.

In a democracy the right to determine public matters belongs to citizens. Therefore we propose that every public office, of any sort whatsoever, whether federal, provincial or municipal, be filled only by citizens. We oppose the corrupting policy of political patronage, receiving political appointments only according to party inclinations without consideration of qualification or merit.

We propose that the government's first priority be to provide the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for Canadians.

All Canadians must have equal rights and obligations.

The first obligation of every Canadian must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals must not be contrary to the interests of a just society, and must be for the benefit of all.

Consequently we propose the taxation and elimination of unearned incomes and increasing the rights of employees.

Due to of the horrible sacrifice of war we propose the total confiscation of all Military-Industrial complex profits.

We propose the dismantling of the Military-Industrial complex and the assumption of all defense responsibilities by the government.

We propose taxation of profits of all heavy industrial corporations.

We propose an expansion on a large scale of the Canada Pension Plan and Old Age Security.

We propose the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation.

We propose the government immediately assume responsibility of the large food warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small businesses.

We propose the utmost care and respect of all small businesses in contracts with the federal, provincial or municipal governments.

We propose a land reform suitable to the needs of Canadians, introducing a law allowing the free expropriation of land when in the public interest such as issues of heath and safety, abolition of property taxes and prevention of real estate profiteering which decreases affordable housing.

We propose getting tough on those whose activity is against the public interest. Criminals, greedy corporations, corrupt politicians and so forth are to be punished to the extent of the law.

We propose reform of the Canadian common law legal system with a written codified constitution and charter of rights.

The federal government will assume responsibility and jurisdiction of education and create a new national education program. Our goal is for every capable and hard-working student to obtain post-secondary education and high-quality careers. The new curriculum will focus on the experiences of real life. The concept of our Canadian identity and a just society will be taught beginning in the early years. We propose free, government-paid education for students from low-income families.

The federal government will improve health care by protecting bond between parent and child, improving labour laws, fighting obesity by encouraging physical fitness through government incentives and in partnership with youth groups.

We propose heavily investing in the Canadian Forces.

We propose legal protection against media bias, foreign ownership and speech which harms Canadian society.

In order to enable that Canada has a media for Canadians, we propose, that:

a. Canadian content laws requiring all writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the Canadian media be Canadian:

b. Non-Canadian newspapers be required to have the express permission of the CRTC to be published.

c.Non-Canadians are forbidden by law any financial interest in Canadian publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the country of the non-Canadian concerned. Publications which are counter to the harmony of Canadian society are forbidden.

We propose legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a harmful influence on our society, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made proposes.

We propose freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not infringe upon the rights of others. We reject consumerism, and believe that our success as a country depends on the principle that, “The good of the community before the good of the individual.”

To achieve this we propose the centralization of a strong federal government that is more than just a head-waiter to the provinces as well as the abolition of the undemocratic senate.
Cool Blue





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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
One gets a free pass while the other is constantly vilified.


In fairness just as all Nazis weren't genocidal maniacs (Like Oscar Schindler) not all Muslims are Jihadis either.



It's a matter of definitions.

The term Nazi, which originally meant "national socialist" has now morphed into a term equating fascism and genocidal racism.

We still have national socialists today but they tend to use other terms (like "New Democrat" ha!).

Seriously though, if we use the original meaning of the Nazi label (meaning national socialist) a lot of politicians who were nationalist as well as socialists fit the bill: Tommy Douglas, Pierre Trudeau, for example (especially with Tommy's support for eugenics..hm..).

This is why with a little tweaking, the Nazi platform would fit in very well into Canadian politics.

On the issue of why Muslims aren't vilified like Nazis is because the term Muslim does not (yet) mean terrorist. To most, "Muslim" just means a follower of Islam.

This is why I prefer the term "Jihadi" or "Jihadist" which differentiates them from other non-terrorism supporting Muslims.
Cool Blue





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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Didn't Moses demand that his people kill each other?


I don't recall that but I could be wrong.

In the Old Testament though there is definetely some pretty violent recommendations on what to do to the enemies of Israel however.
gc





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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sheila wrote:
Didn't Moses demand that his people kill each other?

I don't know...but God did demand that people kill anyone who doesn't believe in him, and even Jesus demanded to kill anyone who doesn't allow him to "reign over them".
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on the topic of extremists...

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