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casper35





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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hear you about not changing anyones mind. Those that rely on emotion and good intentions instead of fact are frustrating (kinda like arguing with a teenager) but I enjoy the debate. For example, did you notice that gc did not address or rebut any of the articles that show that bans increase both crime and the number of illegal guns. I suppose that if you ignore inconvenient facts then one can continue to live safely in a world that denies reality. I admit that it is scary to have to re-evaluate ones own beliefs and values. Even I bought an NDP membership in my youth (shudder).

BTW, I do not believe that even a worldwide gun ban would be effective. Why? Simple firearms are not all that complicated to build.

Beyond that, murderers would just use other available tools - machetes, knives, bats, explosives....A gun ban will do nothing to cure criminals or reduce crime. This has been shown repeatedly.

Crime will always be with us. Focusing on the criminal, both prevention and punishment, is the best way to reduce the number of victims. The other way is to have a highly monitored and controlled society but those always turn into tyrannies.
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
kwlafayette wrote:
Now explain how this cannot possibly apply to police, who you propose get to keep their guns.

See my previous post for reference.

How many police officers have their guns stolen?
I would imagine that it would be same proportion as the number of guns stolen from the civilian population.
gc





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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cosmostein wrote:
When prohibition was passed, did the illegal market for alcohol disappear? While the prices went up it created a huge illegal industry of bootlegging. They developed a very complex network of production and distribution.

I'm not trying to claim that illegal handguns will disappear if we ban them, just that the number will decrease. It would be nice if we could get rid of all handguns (except for police) but that's not realistic, but we should still try to minimize the number.
Quote:
Yet, you assume that if guns were made illegal the cost would get high. The illegal market would do nothing to address this demand and simply pack up and go home...

The difference between alcohol and guns is that guns are already hard to get. Why would I get my alcohol from a bootlegger when I can get it at the store? Of course, if you could get guns easily at the store the number would increase even more. Making it harder to get a gun means there will be less guns. And banning handguns means it will be harder to get guns.
gc





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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
I would imagine that it would be same proportion as the number of guns stolen from the civilian population.

And what percentage of the population do you suppose are police officers?
gc





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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

casper35 wrote:
Simply look at the places that enacted a hangun ban to see the effect - more crime, no reduction in illegal gun ownership.

I think those statistics are misleading. Take England for example...for one thing, they define "gun crimes" as any crime where a gun is used OR threatened to be used. And in many cases, it involves an imitation.
Besides, there are way too many factors to consider before you can relate correlation to causation.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
The prices of illegal guns probably would go up, however it's a basic law of economics that the more expensive something is the less people will buy it.
Or we could just legalize drugs and use those resources to fight real crimes :lol: :lol:

Evidently, you're unfamiliar with criminals since they don't use their own resources to purchase things. They steal/rob/engage in illegal activities to raise their funds. If a criminal wants a gun, he/she will get one regardless of price since that cost is borne by others. As I've said many times before, I fully support legalization of illicit drugs.

-Mac
gc





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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
Evidently, you're unfamiliar with criminals since they don't use their own resources to purchase things. They steal/rob/engage in illegal activities to raise their funds. If a criminal wants a gun, he/she will get one regardless of price since that cost is borne by others.

Criminals do not have an infinite amount of money. If a gun costs $50 and a new car costs $20,000 they might choose to buy a gun and not a car. If a gun costs $20,000 and a new car costs $20,000 they might choose the car. Obviously those costs are not accurate, but I think you get the point...
Quote:
As I've said many times before, I fully support legalization of illicit drugs.

I realize that (note that the laughing emoticon means I am joking around).
casper35





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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, gc, in DC,UK and Australia the supply of guns went up not down, crime rates went up not down. In the UK the price of illegal guns actually dropped. Gun bans has failed to reduce crime and illegal guns in all of these cases. That is not a co-incidence, it is a direct cause and effect relationship. Unfortunately the outcome is in the opposite direction from the one that the anti-gun crowd claims will occur.

How about you show some gun ban success stories to back up your claims?
gc





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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

casper35 wrote:
For example, did you notice that gc did not address or rebut any of the articles that show that bans increase both crime and the number of illegal guns. I suppose that if you ignore inconvenient facts then one can continue to live safely in a world that denies reality.

Oops, almost missed this post. I did not ignore your arguments, I believe I addressed all of your points. Of course, I do have to work and occasionally I like to do other things besides post on this forum, so don't always expect an immediate response.
gc





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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

casper35 wrote:
No, gc, in DC,UK and Australia the supply of guns went up not down, crime rates went up not down. In the UK the price of illegal guns actually dropped. Gun bans has failed to reduce crime and illegal guns in all of these cases. That is not a co-incidence, it is a direct cause and effect relationship. Unfortunately the outcome is in the opposite direction from the one that the anti-gun crowd claims will occur.

How about you show some gun ban success stories to back up your claims?

Once again, there are way too many factors to consider. I would suggest to you that correlation does not imply causation , so unless you can prove that the increase in crime is a direct result of banning guns, then you are speculating just like the rest of us.
Mac





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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
Criminals do not have an infinite amount of money. If a gun costs $50 and a new car costs $20,000 they might choose to buy a gun and not a car. If a gun costs $20,000 and a new car costs $20,000 they might choose the car. Obviously those costs are not accurate, but I think you get the point...

No-one said criminals had infinite money. I said criminals have a different attitude toward "purchases" because they "obtain resourcing" through criminal activity which is fairly radically different from earning money. It appears you don't understand applied criminal psychology.

Instead of dancing around, why don't you simply state the point you're trying to make? Are you trying to avoid being straightforward because that would prove your "arguments" are all emotion based opinions or do you have a better reason?

casper35 wrote:
How about you show some gun ban success stories to back up your claims?

If there was ever such a thing, it would have been lauded by the anti-gun crowd from coast to coast to coast but no such success story exists for the anti-gun crowd. There's numerous success stories for gun advocates but I expect gc isn't interested.

I notice none of those supporting a handgun ban have accepted my challenge to put forward their "five best arguments" for some reason. Strange, that.

-Mac
gc





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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
No-one said criminals had infinite money. I said criminals have a different attitude toward "purchases" because they "obtain resourcing" through criminal activity which is fairly radically different from earning money. It appears you don't understand applied criminal psychology.

The same principles apply to criminals as they do to anyone else. With a fixed amount of money, you can only buy so many things - which requires people to choose. If something is more expensive, they are less likely to choose it. If they want to get more money, they need to work for it - whether that is working overtime, or breaking into a few more houses. Of course, if that was the case they would be doing that already.
Quote:
Instead of dancing around, why don't you simply state the point you're trying to make? Are you trying to avoid being straightforward because that would prove your "arguments" are all emotion based opinions or do you have a better reason?

What are you talking about? I think I have been as straightforward as possible in this thread.
gc





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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
I notice none of those supporting a handgun ban have accepted my challenge to put forward their "five best arguments" for some reason. Strange, that.

My arguments are littered throughout this thread. Do you really need me to sum them up for you?
Mac





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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
The same principles apply to criminals as they do to anyone else. With a fixed amount of money, you can only buy so many things - which requires people to choose. If something is more expensive, they are less likely to choose it. If they want to get more money, they need to work for it - whether that is working overtime, or breaking into a few more houses.

Again, you're demonstrating your lack of understand of applied criminal psychology and also a lack of understanding of criminal behaviour.

Your principles are fine for regular citizens operating within normal society. Street level criminals aren't regular citizens; they reject normal society. Their reality is much more primal and less predictable. They never know when the next windfall will happen and their "regular" work often depends on conditions which they have little or no control over.

Organized criminals aren't breaking into houses. Their criminal activity is planned and, to some degree, cooperative (hence the title "organized") and the odds of keeping handguns from organized criminals are effectively nil since they can have the handguns purchased legally in the US (or elsewhere) and smuggled into Canada.

gc wrote:
What are you talking about? I think I have been as straightforward as possible in this thread.

gc, here's a little aid to help you as you're writing. As soon as you start to write anything like "I think you get the point" that should be a signal to you that you've gone astray.

Going out to dinner. I'll share more thoughts later!!

-Mac
gc





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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
Again, you're demonstrating your lack of understand of applied criminal psychology and also a lack of understanding of criminal behaviour.

Your principles are fine for regular citizens operating within normal society. Street level criminals aren't regular citizens; they reject normal society. Their reality is much more primal and less predictable. They never know when the next windfall will happen and their "regular" work often depends on conditions which they have little or no control over.

Ok, criminals are "different" than normal people and I know nothing about criminal psychology...How does that refute the points I made in my previous post?

Quote:
gc, here's a little aid to help you as you're writing. As soon as you start to write anything like "I think you get the point" that should be a signal to you that you've gone astray.

Huh? I gave an example, but since I have no clue what a gun costs or what it would cost if it were illegal, I made up some numbers. You can substitute those numbers with any numbers you like and it doesn't change the point, that's why I said "I think you get the point".

As an aside, what's up with you lately, Mac? You used to be my favourite poster on this board. As it is, you've gone from being my favourite poster to being pretty much the only person on this board that I try to ignore. And just when I stopped ignoring you because I thought you were back to your old self, you go back to using your little digs.
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