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Craig
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Joined: 29 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:04 pm    Post subject: What makes a religion exempt from criticism? Reply with quote

Is it the number of people who believe in it?

If more than one million people believe in it you are no longer allow to be critical of it?

What is the standard? For all of those people who get their pants in a knot about people being critical of Islam I want to know what the standard is.

I think that the Heaven's Gate religion was a sham and the leader of that religion was a criminal. Does that make me an extremist?



Many people would call Heaven's Gate a cult and not a religion but what is the difference? Is it the number of people that follow it? According to Wikipedia it is a religion...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.....s_group%29

I've stated this before. If I started my own religion that, at its foundation, argued for the killing of people Jews would you tolerate it? Would you allow it to have tax exempt status in Canada? Guess what - Islam does - and the religion itself and many of its high level leaders call for the killing of Jews. Why do we tolerate it? Because it is a religion?

Or is it because we live in a democracy and their votes are more important than principles? Or maybe it is because to few of us are willing to risk being called a bigot?

I see many members in this forum bending over backwards to defend Islam. Quite frankly it makes me sick. These are the same people argue with passion in the defense of homosexuality and minority rights.
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
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votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would think if the religion is in the top ten in number of adherents in a country then people are pretty scared to talk bad about it. If people accept it as normal, then it is hard to speak against it. If people of the religion have lived in a country for a long time and haven't caused alot of trouble I think the religion is accepted, even if there are some passages of their scriptures that are considered hateful by today's standards. By this standard Islam has not been that big a problem in Canada. It is only the last 20 years or so that Muslim extremism has been a problem worldwide. Except for the events surrounding 9/11 Muslim extremism has been a small movement in Canada.

Muslim people for the most part live peaceably in this country. I know some and they are nice kind people. Not that they don't have their own prejudices. Sometimes these prejudices can cause trouble for them as Muslim prejudices are not shared by our western world view.
A buddy of mine used to talk about how he disliked the U.S. He was pretty quiet after 9/11.
Craig
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being "nice" isn't good enough. If you want me to accept your religion then YOU need to weed about the extremists in your midst. I want the Muslims who call for the death of Jews to be marginalized by their fellow MUSLIMS. I should not have to do the dirty work. I should not have to be the one posting these posts in forums to raise awareness. If Muslims passively accept the presence of extremists then I can conclude nothing less than their approval of it.
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 2463
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votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You hear stories of Muslims terrorizing anyone who speaks against extremism. It a tough row to hoe if you have to pay with your life.

Many of these people are one generation away from a war zone. So Muslims in Canada hear from there relatives how bad it is in Lebanon or Afganistan(where ever) and who do people blame. The US and Israel of course. When you are in a war you call for destruction of the enemy. A lot of it is rhetoric.

I do think there should be a law that if you are caught preaching hate and are not a Canadian you should be sent packing. They should also not allow any immigrants from terrorist dominated nations.
Craig
Site Admin




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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
You hear stories of Muslims terrorizing anyone who speaks against extremism. It a tough row to hoe if you have to pay with your life.


There is no other option. If they want Islam to be accepted they need stand up WITH us and fight against their own extremist elements.

Quote:
I do think there should be a law that if you are caught preaching hate and are not a Canadian you should be sent packing. They should also not allow any immigrants from terrorist dominated nations.


Amen to that.
Sheila





Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 556
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votes: 16
Location: Central Alberta

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
mrsocko wrote:
You hear stories of Muslims terrorizing anyone who speaks against extremism. It a tough row to hoe if you have to pay with your life.


There is no other option. If they want Islam to be accepted they need stand up WITH us and fight against their own extremist elements.

Quote:
I do think there should be a law that if you are caught preaching hate and are not a Canadian you should be sent packing. They should also not allow any immigrants from terrorist dominated nations.


Amen to that.


You hear of hateful Christian extremists who speak against abortion and homosexuality, but no one is allowed to criticize that? If you do, then you are branded as a non person never to be talked to again. There are extremists in all religions, no religion is excempt. Two fine examples above.
FascistLibertarian





Joined: 23 Feb 2007
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Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What do you mean 'accept' the religion?
How do you not accept a religion?
Craig
Site Admin




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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sheila wrote:
You hear of hateful Christian extremists who speak against abortion and homosexuality, but no one is allowed to criticize that? If you do, then you are branded as a non person never to be talked to again.


Pro-abortionists are the equivalent of Muslim extremists. Instead of beheading the babies they slice and dice them or kill them with salt.

I hope you aren't equating hatred of a behavior to hatred of people. Wanting to kill all Jews is not the same as hating the Jewish religion. Anyone who can't understand the different between the two deserves to never to be spoken to again.

If I suggested that all Muslims should be killed I would expect to be banned from these forums in short order. If I suggested that all gays should be killed I would expect to be banned from these forums quickly. If I suggest that Islam is a bad religion and that homosexuality is wrong then I'm expressing my opinion about a behavior and I'm not indicting a person or group of people as a whole.

If I hate smoking does that mean that I hate smokers? Or does it just mean that I hate the fact that smokers smoke.

Having to explain the distinction between hating a group of people and hating a characteristic of a persons behaviour over and over again is most annoying.
Lar_drewstar





Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose whatever limit you want to give a religion determines if its exempt from criticism. In my case however no religion big or small should be exempt.. everything should be questioned all the time.
urbanmonk





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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sheila wrote:

You hear of hateful Christian extremists who speak against abortion and homosexuality

Christians who speak against abortion and homosexuality very rarely ever do so in a hateful way, in fact it is usually the opposite.
Sheila wrote:

but no one is allowed to criticize that?

That is just not correct and in many cases it is Christians who are first to criticize hateful extremists the likes of Fred Phelps.
Your eagerness to bash all things Christian clouds your reality.....
FascistLibertarian





Joined: 23 Feb 2007
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Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its not like any religion is exempt from criticism...
donmuntean





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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
Being "nice" isn't good enough. If you want me to accept your religion then YOU need to weed about the extremists in your midst. I want the Muslims who call for the death of Jews to be marginalized by their fellow MUSLIMS. I should not have to do the dirty work. I should not have to be the one posting these posts in forums to raise awareness. If Muslims passively accept the presence of extremists then I can conclude nothing less than their approval of it.


Indeed that is well started and - if that doesn't make the point perfectly then - what can?

When I was a hare krishna I was insulted by others all the time - cult this and cult that - yet I haven't heard of any hare krishna's threatening death to anyone!

Here is another example - now that I'm following the Jewish philosophy I sometimes post things to the disdain of Christians - I post information about why Jews do not accept Jesus as God nor messiah - yet I haven't seen any Christians calling for my execution!

If radical Muslims were sincere about faith they wouldn't wig-out whenever others discuss their teachings and are critical of them... :!:
Sheila





Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 556
Reputation: -6.8
votes: 16
Location: Central Alberta

PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

urbanmonk wrote:
Sheila wrote:

You hear of hateful Christian extremists who speak against abortion and homosexuality

Christians who speak against abortion and homosexuality very rarely ever do so in a hateful way, in fact it is usually the opposite.
Sheila wrote:

but no one is allowed to criticize that?

That is just not correct and in many cases it is Christians who are first to criticize hateful extremists the likes of Fred Phelps.
Your eagerness to bash all things Christian clouds your reality.....


LOL, check out the abortion thread and see how hateful Christians can be.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
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votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where is BEAJ? We need him to pour some atheism on this thread... :lol:

-Mac
AutumnFalls





Joined: 10 Jun 2009
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Location: Western Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm for now going to ignore anything but the initial question: What makes a religion exempt from criticism. In my opinion no religion should be exempt from criticism - which I believe is the OP's point. Although religion in general is based on feelings and faith, I think in order for one to be a healthy Christian, Atheist, Muslim etc, etc, one must critically examine their religion, it's history, it's precepts and how it enriches or demeans their life and beliefs. I am religious, but I study things on my own to affirm my connection with said religion and make sure that it does not conflict with my personal beliefs or other things. That is healthy and keeps one from being drawn in by scam churches, cults, heck while I'm on the attack political parties. Anyways, my point is that every belief and every leader shouldn't be believed blindly.

As a rule, I think any religion or person for that matter should be judge for their "goodness" by the tenants they teach, the people they produce and the effect they have on the lives of others. Unfortunately this idea puts Muslims in a bad light. That said in the past Christians have done some pretty bad things. I'm not anti-Muslim, but I am not pro-Muslim either. I think an individual could use many Muslim teachings for good - admittedly I do not know many of their tenants. But, those same teachings and what not could also be used for violence. Just as the bible can be used for good or ill. The Muslims have a bad rep from their extremists. I can't say if the religion is all bad, or if there is enough good in it and it's people to be considered an aid to people. So in answer to your questions? I think I said (in many words) I don't know.
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