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FF_Canuck





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 3360
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votes: 17
Location: Southern Alberta

PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:52 am    Post subject: 'It is about freedom' Reply with quote

President Vaclav Klaus speaks at the International Climate Change Conference:

Quote:
I am afraid there are people who want to stop the economic growth, the rise in the standard of living (though not their own) and the ability of man to use the expanding wealth, science and technology for solving the actual pressing problems of mankind, especially of the developing countries. This ambition goes very much against the past human experience which has always been connected with a strong motivation to go ahead and to better human conditions. There is no reason to make the, from above orchestrated, change just now – especially with arguments based on such an incomplete and faulty science as is demonstrated by the IPCC. Human wants are unlimited and should stay so. Asceticism is a respectable individual attitude but should not be forcefully imposed upon the rest of us.

I am also afraid that the same people, imprisoned in the Malthusian tenets and in their own megalomaniac ambitions, want to regulate and constrain the demographic development, which is something only the totalitarian regimes have until now dared to think about or experiment with. Without resisting it we would find ourselves on the slippery “road to serfdom.” The freedom to have children without regulation and control is one of the undisputable human rights and we have to say very loudly that we do respect it and will do so in the future as well....

... The climate alarmists believe in their own omnipotency, in knowing better than millions of rationally behaving men and women what is right or wrong, in their own ability to assembly all relevant data into their Central Climate Change Regulatory Office (CCCRO) equipped with huge supercomputers, in the possibility to give adequate instructions to hundreds of millions of individuals and institutions and in the non-existence of an incentive problem (and the resulting compliance or non-compliance of those who are supposed to follow these instructions).

We have to restart the discussion about the very nature of government and about the relationship between the individual and society. Now it concerns the whole mankind, not just the citizens of one particular country. To discuss this means to look at the canonically structured theoretical discussion about socialism (or communism) and to learn the uncompromising lesson from the inevitable collapse of communism 18 years ago. It is not about climatology. It is about freedom.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
Reputation: 104
votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read an article/interview with Klaus recently where Klaus drew a comparison between the Climate Change Cult and the Communist movement in Russia and he makes a good case of it.

By strange coincidence, if the CCC started a political party, they would be the CCCP... (transliteration of Cyrillic USSR, equivalent to Union of Soviet Socialist Republics in English)

-Mac
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 2463
Reputation: 131.2
votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I posted a thread talking about the rascist beginings of the abortion business. I wonder if there is any evidence that the climate change cult started as part of an ideology like socialism or communism.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
Reputation: 104
votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
I posted a thread talking about the rascist beginings of the abortion business. I wonder if there is any evidence that the climate change cult started as part of an ideology like socialism or communism.

The origins of the CCC aren't mysterious.

The Greenpeace movement was part of a counter-cultural revolution spawned in the 1960s, formed to protest against pollution and destruction of the environment. The 60s were rife with revolutionaries, determined to change their world and to lash out against "the man".

As the Greenpeace movement grew and achieved most of it's goals of environmental awareness, the leaders became addicted to power and started moving their protests into other arenas like anti-globalization, anti-capitalism, anti-corporations, anti-establishment...

At this point, the environment is the last of their concerns. They see climate change as being their vehicle to resources, governmental cooperation and power.

-Mac
FascistLibertarian





Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 1092
Reputation: 30.1Reputation: 30.1Reputation: 30.1
votes: 14
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
achieved most of it's goals of environmental awareness

Most people int he developed world dont understand what is happening to the environment. They have learned nothing.
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 2463
Reputation: 131.2
votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
They have learned nothing.


I've learned that global warming is bullshit. That's something.
:P
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
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votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FascistLibertarian wrote:
Most people int he developed world dont understand what is happening to the environment. They have learned nothing.

Nice to know how you feel about your fellow citizens. Thank you for exposing your ignorance and bigotry, F-L.

Environment Canada and the US equivalent, the Environment Protection Agency, were created and grew powerful in direct response to the activism of Greenpeace and other similar groups. These government agencies spearheaded broad-based changes in policy and regulation at all levels of government.

Companies now actively seek "green" projects and look for ways to make their products or services environmentally friendly. Whether that's out of a legitimate desire to be environmentally sustainable or out of a cynical effort to cash in on the environmental movement is irrelevant.

For F-L's benefit... it doesn't matter whether a tax-slave from any large urban area understands the workings of environmental protection... just so long as he/she keeps paying their taxes and maintain their sense of guilt.

Environmental activism, in some cases, has good too far so that vast tracts of land have become unusable simply because activists suspect a species might be at risk. It doesn't matter to the activists whether they can prove the species is actually at risk; only that they convince local governments to set aside vast tracts of land. That's the fun part of dealing with activists- truth is meaningless to them because the end always justifies the means.

-Mac
Sheila





Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 556
Reputation: -6.8
votes: 16
Location: Central Alberta

PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really believe people still don't "get it" about the environment. And contrary to what you say, did you know that Environment Canada approves of the local train using 10% used lube oil. But I believe they use more than this, but we'll never know because Alberta Environment refused to test the air or the fuel. And this is the shit we have to breath.
People around here use Roundup like it's freaking water. Where does it go. You may argue that it rains and just runs off. But to where? Our rivers and streams. I find it very disturbing that our waste treatment plants are unable to filter chemicals and pharmaceutical drugs from our water. After it is "treated" it goes back into the rivers and streams to the next town or city, and on and on it goes.
Last summer I watched my neighbour's daughter run bare foot behind the dandelion bar. Is that retarded or what? They also live in a pre 50's home and have a lead water pipe. We told them to make sure they run their water for 5 minutes every morning. Will they listen? Who knows. The information is out there. Not like in the 50's when my Dad was telling me about a mercury based seed treatment that he used, that had no warnings on the label, he dug his hands right in.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
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votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, there are individuals who don't care about the environment but it's harder to argue that they're ignorant because, as you say, the information is out there.

Read your own examples. Does your father still dig his hands into mercury-based seed treatment? If not, why not?

People use Roundup like water? Most stores won't even sell you Roundup unless they give you a warning speech about the dangers of usage. The product is covered with warning labels. Where do you think the labels and warnings speeches came from?

The train has likely been burning used lube oil since trains started burning hydrocarbons. You're now aware of it. I doubt Alberta Environment (look at that... a provincial environmental agency!) has jurisdiction over the train but that's just a guess... and if Environment Canada says it's allowed, I expect they've done testing to ensure such is the case. Regardless, the fact you're aware of it means someone, somewhere is talking about it.

Before Greenpeace and the other environmental activist groups, the information wasn't out there and there was no interest whatsoever in developing it. Nowadays, environmental assessment is key to any project and the possibility of long-term damage is always examined.

Just because we don't live in an environmental activists' green utopia doesn't mean people aren't aware or don't "get it" as you say. People make choices. Whether it's good choices or bad ones is up to them and unless you're advocating making our government even more authoritarian than it already is, people will continue to have the freedom to make choices... and to live with the consequences thereof.

-Mac
Sheila





Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 556
Reputation: -6.8
votes: 16
Location: Central Alberta

PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the infomation is out there, but what if government agencies chose to ignore it. The local police told us that we would get no where with the town concerning the train. They were right. They also said they have no jurisdiction, it's true. If a truck was spewing this much garbage the DOT would have them off the road. The testing that has been done was by a lab based in the US, done years ago. Martin Paetz from Alberta Environment did not test the fuel and took AB Prairie's word for it, that they were using the 10% currently allowed. I know what's in used lube oil, apparently both Environment Canada and Alberta Envrironment are unaware that used lube oil consists of anything and everything they cannot pour down the drain. I also know where they get their used lube oil and I also know the truck driver who hauls it to them. Where the eff are my rights to breath clean air? This train station sits right across the street from a residential area. Why isn't it in a commercially zoned area? Because CNR has the "right of way" to do anything they want. I only want those effers to use clean burning fuel, if it takes a law to do it, so be it.
I have never gotten any of my information from Greenpeace - they are still using 25 year old seal clubbing footage. I don't listen to David Suzuki - last Christmas when his foundation came out saying that real Christmas trees were more environmentally friendly, all I could think about was that his foundation must sell Christmas trees.
No my Dad doesn't use the seed treatment anymore, he's dead. Cancer, imagine that. It wasn't that long ago that we were rolling mercury around on our hands when a thermometer broke. You should check out this video about mercury fillings. I sent it to my dentist and staff, they were very happy to have received it. If nothing else it made them aware of the dangers they come in contact with while they work.
http://articles.mercola.com/si.....video.aspx
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
Reputation: 104
votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read the last paragraph of my last post, Sheila. I'm not saying it's right but it's the simple truth. The fact you're aware of this 10% mix thing proves my point. Back in the 50s, no-one would know or care what kind of fuel the train was burning.

If you're concerned about the train, make noise about it! The trains are federal jurisdiction so put some heat onto Environment Canada and remember to put it on paper so they cannot simply ignore your concerns. Gather like-minded individuals and let CN (or whoever operates the train) that their practices are unacceptable. Get the media involved.

-Mac
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
Reputation: 156.2Reputation: 156.2
votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In fairness, the tracks were probably there for a long time before the residential area was erected, that is why the CN yard is where it is. Probably the best course of action is a civil suit, maybe you could even get class action status. Gather your evidence, take air and water samples. Phone Ellie May, the press laps up anything she says. You could get that Kennedy guy, the Waterkeeper Alliance I think he is. Bear in mind those other people have their own agendas that they will be wanting to advance, your's will be incidental to them.
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