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Sheila





Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 556
Reputation: -6.8
votes: 16
Location: Central Alberta

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Matt, if you are trying to say that I said that, forget it. I said that "two years later, I'm sure she would have come to grips with what she had done". That is not "getting over it". I have lost many loved ones, you can never "get over it", you "get through it", you "come to terms with it". Luckily I had a lot of support unlike this poor woman.
peter_puck





Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 82
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votes: 1

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:18 pm    Post subject: suicide notes Reply with quote

Quote:

PARDON??? She said in her note that the reason she killed herself was BECAUSE she had an abortion. You don't think that is relevant?!?

That is like saying that a note left by a murder suspect stating that he committed the murder isn't relevant.

I seriously don't get your post.


Sucide is an irrational act. Most people who commit suicide suffer from some sort of mental illness. In particular, women who have given birth are at risk of post partum depression and or post-natal psycosis (and yes, I can't spell that word). I assume a women who had an abortion would have the same risk.

I find using the contents of a suicide note in the abortion debate as exploitive.

There are lots of cases of women who have killed themselves and their new born children shortly after birth. I am sure I could post things from their suicide notes that would touch on a political argument.

Bottom line is that suicide have no place in intelligent discussion.
peter_puck





Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 82
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votes: 1

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:20 pm    Post subject: suicide notes Reply with quote

Quote:

PARDON??? She said in her note that the reason she killed herself was BECAUSE she had an abortion. You don't think that is relevant?!?

That is like saying that a note left by a murder suspect stating that he committed the murder isn't relevant.

I seriously don't get your post.


Sucide is an irrational act. Most people who commit suicide suffer from some sort of mental illness. In particular, women who have given birth are at risk of post partum depression and or post-natal psycosis (and yes, I can't spell that word). I assume a women who had an abortion would have the same risk.

I find using the contents of a suicide note in the abortion debate as exploitive.

There are lots of cases of women who have killed themselves and their new born children shortly after birth. I am sure I could post things from their suicide notes that would touch on a political argument.

Bottom line is that suicide have no place in intelligent discussion.
peter_puck





Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 82
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votes: 1

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:31 pm    Post subject: Correlation and Causation Reply with quote

Quote:

Women who have an abortion face a 248 percent greater risk of suicide, accidental death or homicide in the following year, according to a newly released 13-year Finnish study.
The survey also found the suicide rate among women who had an abortion was six times higher than for women who had given birth in the prior year and double that of women who had miscarriages.



Again, correlation does not equal causation. There is no evidence that abortion CAUSES suicide or homcide. People who have abortions tend to be
1)Poor
2)lack religious beliefs and or morals
3) had a child when the didn't wish when prevention was available and easy to understand.

Those people tend to be at a greater risk for suicide/murder, etc. How does having an abortion make you more likely to get murdered ?


Quote:

Peter puck's post that the woman must have been mentally unbalanced


Just to clarify, I think almost everyone who commits suicide is suffereing from some sort of mental illness. I know lots of people in really dire straights who do not.
I guess you can argue the point about someone who lost their child in an accident. But, I would come back that anyone who feels abortion is okay, then switches 100% the other way is maybe not all there.


While I believe that abortion is wrong, for at least some part of prenatal development, that belief is soley religious. I don't have the right to impose that view on other people. Trying to use junk science or suicide notes to do so is wrong
crazymamma





Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 1011
Reputation: 71.8
votes: 14
Location: The kitchen

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JUNK SCIENCE?

The Finland's National Research and Development Center for Welfare and Health and published in the European Journal of Public Health is JUNK SCIENCE?

You may not like what the results are but they are what they are. You can junk it because it doesn't fit neatly into your thought processes, but that PP is on you not the science/study. Ignore what you want, so far it's a free country, but be clear on what your ignoring.
peter_puck





Joined: 15 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:29 pm    Post subject: Junk Science Reply with quote

Quote:

The Finland's National Research and Development Center for Welfare and Health and published in the European Journal of Public Health is JUNK SCIENCE?


Junk Science is implying that correlation = causation. I don't know if the organization you mentioned above said that having abortion CAUSES you to commit suicide, get murdered, have an accident etc, but you implied it.

I can probably do a study that shows people who have the word "hate" tatooed accross their hand have a greater chance of getting murdered. Does that mean the tatoo is the reason they get murdered ? NO!
I could do a study showing that those people who buy cloths from big and tall shops have a greater risk of dying of heart disease...does that mean that big and tall shops cause heart disease ? NO!

People with religious beliefs are much less likely to commit suicide.
Intelligent, well functioning people are less likely to get murdered or commit suicide.
People who have not just gone through pregnancy have a zero percent chance of having post-partum depression and post-natal psychosis.

On average, someone who has had an unplanned pregnancy and decides to have an abortion is more likely than the average person to be:
A) Poor
B) Lacking religious/moral beliefs
C) Unintelligent (I knew about contraception in grade 7. While people have unplanned pregnancies for many reasons, a certain percentage are careless/stuipid
D) a drug user

These people are the same people that tend to commit suicide and get murdered. They would be equally at risk if they had an abortion or still had the child (except that maybe a child might make them somewhat more responsible)
FF_Canuck





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 3360
Reputation: 73.4
votes: 17
Location: Southern Alberta

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would appear that the study I previously referenced was from the mid-eighties. Newer research supports what peter_puck is saying:

Quote:
In 2000, 21 out of every 1,000 women of reproductive age had an abortion. Women who are aged 18-29, unmarried, black or Hispanic, or economically disadvantaged—including those on Medicaid—have higher abortion rates. The overall abortion rate decreased by 11% between 1994 and 2000. The decline was greatest for 15-17-year-olds, women in the highest income category, those with college degrees and those with no religious affiliation. Abortion rates for women with incomes below 200% of poverty and for women with Medicaid coverage increased between 1994 and 2000. The rate of decline in abortion among black and Hispanic adolescents was lower than that among white adolescents, and the abortion rate among poor teenagers increased substantially.


Link: Patterns in the socioeconomic characteristics of women obtaining abortions in 2000–2001

I would surmise that advances in birth control technologies are behind the overall decrease in abortion rate, and especially the decrease in rates among high-income, educated whites.
Matt





Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 192
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votes: 3
Location: York-Centre

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I'd abandoned this thread unintentionally.

crazymamma, I apologize, I had you confused with Sheila.

Sheila, I apologize, I misunderstood your comment.

Hope that clears it up!
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