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kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
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votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In all likely hood, all will be worse off without exception. It will cost more to turn on the lights, cost more to heat your home, cost more grow your food, cost more to transport it, cost more to process it, cost more to package it, cost more to buy it, cost more to cook it. It will cost more to drive to work, it will cost your employers more to keep their light and heat on. It will cost more to manufacture goods, it will cost more to provide services.

No one will be better off, and come July 1 we will get the first empirical evidence.

Air Canada just slapped on some fuel surcharges. Looks like the era of backpacking across Australia or Europe is over, the next generation will not be able to afford that after the hair brained tax regimes of the hippie generation are put into effect.
Bleatmop





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 953
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votes: 10

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crazymamma wrote:
Bleatmop wrote:
Mac wrote:
gc wrote:
It's a zero sum game.

As Penn & Teller would say.... "That's bullshit!"

-Mac


Quite possibly my favorite show of all time. I've been looking for the DVD's for what seems like forever now.


Have you tried E-Bay?


I found some for the whole five seasons but the price could be a bit much.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/PENN-AND-TE.....dZViewItem


I hadn't thought of using Ebay before. I've looked at Amazon.com, but I'm having problems distinguishing between the censored and uncensored products, and I would be disappointed if I spent a ton the DVD's and they were not the version I preferred.
Bleatmop





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 953
Reputation: 17.5Reputation: 17.5
votes: 10

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
I am not trying to claim that it will be revenue neutral for all, I am saying that it will be revenue neutral on average. Some will be worse off, but some will be better off. But I believe that people should pay for what they use (at least, if they can afford it), so it makes sense that if you use more of something that you should pay more. Right now, people are using the environment for free. It does not cost anything to pollute the environment with your car. Now we could quibble about the "cost" of the environment, but I hope we can both agree that the cost is not zero. But that's how it works now, people can "use" the environment as much as they want without paying a cent. Some people on this board might even call that socialism.


Does anyone else see how, with an Orwellian spin, the same arguments that I've highlighted could be used to justify a breathing or farting tax? After all, we breath out more CO2 that we breath in, and isn't that "polluting" the environment for free?
cosmostein





Joined: 04 Oct 2006
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Location: The World

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Final word on carbon tax. Reply with quote

My concerns are simple,

My natural gas bill broke the $200 a month threshold for the first time during our very cold winter. Now like a good little Eco-Soldier I have thermostats set to keep the house at 17C between 11PM - 7AM, at 7AM it increases to 19C and decreases down to 17C at 10AM and up to 20C between 6PM and 11PM.

Yet now, Dion would have me pay a Carbon tax over and above that?

We have two cars, I switch to a smaller engine two years ago and she made the change this year, we reduced out gas consumption (in liters) by about 40% which basically means we are paying the same now in a month that we did three years ago before we made the "green" choice.

Yet even though I have a green car, and a less terrible car for the environment and no viable means to take mass transit to work in under 2.5 hours each way (whereas my drive is 20 minutes, her drive is 25)

Dion will still have me pay a Carbon tax over and above that?

Lets not even talk about the cost of goods where I am already being dinged with transportation surcharges because of the current cost of fuel, I can only imagine how much more this will weigh down on Ontario's manufacturing industry when they see a blanket increase across the board for materials.

Honestly, for my household it will mean a little less in terms of disposable income but even a slight 5% increase in the cost of gas, electricity, and natural gas could be budget breaking for many middle income Canadians,

If the media concluded that the GST cut was the "ultimate" rich mans tax break, then surely this Carbon tax should be seen as the ultimate screw job on the middle class.

Taxing the means to heat your home?

Stephane Dion is the Grinch.
gc





Joined: 23 Jun 2007
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Location: A Monochromatic World

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bleatmop wrote:
Does anyone else see how, with an Orwellian spin, the same arguments that I've highlighted could be used to justify a breathing or farting tax? After all, we breath out more CO2 that we breath in, and isn't that "polluting" the environment for free?

If we didn't need to breathe in order to live, then I might agree with you.
Of course, we all breathe about the same, so we would all be paying about the same...so what would be the point?
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
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votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We absolutely need to burn fossil fuels to maintain our current standard of living. If you don;t think our current standard of living is sustainable/desirable, then I have two words for you; you first.

We need fossil fuel to live longer, healthier lives. We need fossil fuel to fight poverty, to make a living, to do anything in the modern world.
gc





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Location: A Monochromatic World

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
We absolutely need to burn fossil fuels to maintain our current standard of living. If you don;t think our current standard of living is sustainable/desirable, then I have two words for you; you first.

We need fossil fuel to live longer, healthier lives. We need fossil fuel to fight poverty, to make a living, to do anything in the modern world.

Yep, and if you only use fossil fuels for important things then you will have more money under my carbon tax system than you did before.

By the way, we need income to maintain our current standard of living as well, and income tax will be lower with a carbon tax.
palomino_pony





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 539
Reputation: 93.9Reputation: 93.9
votes: 3
Location: Lower Mainland, BC

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
I am not trying to claim that it will be revenue neutral for all, I am saying that it will be revenue neutral on average. Some will be worse off, but some will be better off.

Good luck selling that. BTW, we will all be worse off, not just a select few. The cost for fuel needed to run police, ambulance, and fire vehicles will go up. The cost to heat and light public buildings (schools, libraries, courthouses, city halls, etc) will go up. Who picks up the tab for that? The cost for bringing school lunches to feed the needy kids will go up. The cost of running Meals on Wheels will increase, raising the cost of bringing food to the eldery.

What about small businesses? Any company that delivers things to your house (say for example energy efficient water heaters, double pane windows, weather stripping) will incur a higher cost, which will be passed onto the consumer. Just what we need, making green solutions more costly.


Last edited by palomino_pony on Tue May 13, 2008 11:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
crazymamma





Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 1011
Reputation: 71.8
votes: 14
Location: The kitchen

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bleatmop wrote:
crazymamma wrote:
Bleatmop wrote:
Mac wrote:
gc wrote:
It's a zero sum game.

As Penn & Teller would say.... "That's bullshit!"

-Mac


Quite possibly my favorite show of all time. I've been looking for the DVD's for what seems like forever now.


Have you tried E-Bay?


I found some for the whole five seasons but the price could be a bit much.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/PENN-AND-TE.....dZViewItem


I hadn't thought of using Ebay before. I've looked at Amazon.com, but I'm having problems distinguishing between the censored and uncensored products, and I would be disappointed if I spent a ton the DVD's and they were not the version I preferred.


The link I gave you to a box set of the five seasons on e-bay says it's the uncensored versions. I have great luck/service from E-bay.

(Avert your eyes Mac) I have never had to pay duty or taxes on my purchases...yet. which is a bonus.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
Reputation: 156.2Reputation: 156.2
votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I recall, the GST was supposed to be revenue neutral as well. No one was supposed to notice it at all.
Bleatmop





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 953
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votes: 10

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crazymamma wrote:
Bleatmop wrote:
crazymamma wrote:
Bleatmop wrote:
Mac wrote:
gc wrote:
It's a zero sum game.

As Penn & Teller would say.... "That's bullshit!"

-Mac


Quite possibly my favorite show of all time. I've been looking for the DVD's for what seems like forever now.


Have you tried E-Bay?


I found some for the whole five seasons but the price could be a bit much.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/PENN-AND-TE.....dZViewItem


I hadn't thought of using Ebay before. I've looked at Amazon.com, but I'm having problems distinguishing between the censored and uncensored products, and I would be disappointed if I spent a ton the DVD's and they were not the version I preferred.


The link I gave you to a box set of the five seasons on e-bay says it's the uncensored versions. I have great luck/service from E-bay.

(Avert your eyes Mac) I have never had to pay duty or taxes on my purchases...yet. which is a bonus.


Thanks for the link. Now I need to convince my wife that we "need" this :P It's going to be a tough sell, but I think I can manage it.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
Reputation: 156.2Reputation: 156.2
votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.globeinvestor.com/s.....4/GIStory/

Quote:
"It looks like, at long last, we're seeing drivers respond to the surge in gas prices," said Douglas Porter, deputy chief economist at BMO Nesbitt Burns. "We're getting to the pain threshold for some people, where it's beginning to affect behaviour."


Carbon taxes, we hardly knew you.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
Reputation: 156.2Reputation: 156.2
votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"We're thinking maybe we'll fly instead," she says, pointing out that the cost of tanking a SUV for a drive across half the country is probably just as costly as paying for air tickets for the whole family.

As you go down the income ladder, the impact of energy inflation rises, and the choices are going to get tougher. Not only are low-income consumers paying a much higher percentage of their income for gasoline and fuels, but their influence on demand is so weak that even a concerted effort to cut consumption might be ineffective in cooling the hot market and pushing prices back down, analysts warn.

http://www.globeinvestor.com/s.....6/GIStory/

Revenue neutral. ROFLMAO!
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Final word on carbon tax.

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