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JBG





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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 11:52 pm    Post subject: US and Canadian Obstruction at Bali Dooms All Humans Reply with quote

There are two big pieces of news tonight:

  1. The big snow they predicted for the New York City area is instead going to be a rainstorm (link); and
  2. The US and Canada successfully sabotaged the setting of numerical Greenhouse Gas targets at Bali (link)
I'm thus concerned that Canada's and the US's obstructionist tactics at Bali are dooming us all to a certain demise. Specifically, because of the US and Canadian policies, every one of us now on the earth is going to die. Do you realize that? Our politicians twiddle their thumbs, capitulate to the oil industry and the forces of global capitalism while every one of us marches inexorably to eventual death.

Gore is not even setting us straight. It's implement Kyoto, now, or we all face eventual certainty of winding up 2 meters under.
Mac





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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Explain one thing for me, please. In Canada's northern territories, we've found ample evidence that it was once a tropical zone. Why?

-Mac
Riley W





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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
Explain one thing for me, please. In Canada's northern territories, we've found ample evidence that it was once a tropical zone. Why?

-Mac


lol, JUST learned this in Geography the other day.

The theory of continental drifting points to what was once a super-continent of "Pangea", and current day North America was much closer to the equator.

And therefor the arctic could very well have been tropical millions of years ago.

Also their was a great shallow sea that covered the area from the Beaufort Sea (waters of the coast of Alaska and Yukon) to the Coastal Gulf USA.

This shallow sea eventually dried up and dead fish and stuff turned into fossil feuls.

Which explains why that entire stretch of N. America from the Arctic to the Gulf of Mexico is oil-rich.

The place where the shallow sea is - is likely to have oil.
JBG





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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
Explain one thing for me, please. In Canada's northern territories, we've found ample evidence that it was once a tropical zone. Why?

-Mac
Ask David Suzuki. He's self-sacrificing, as is Al Gore, Paul Desmairis, and Maurice Strong, for all of our futures.
Big Tuna





Joined: 28 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:26 am    Post subject: Re: US and Canadian Obstruction at Bali Dooms All Humans Reply with quote

JBG wrote:
There are two big pieces of news tonight:

  1. The big snow they predicted for the New York City area is instead going to be a rainstorm (link); and
  2. The US and Canada successfully sabotaged the setting of numerical Greenhouse Gas targets at Bali (link)
I'm thus concerned that Canada's and the US's obstructionist tactics at Bali are dooming us all to a certain demise. Specifically, because of the US and Canadian policies, every one of us now on the earth is going to die. Do you realize that? Our politicians twiddle their thumbs, capitulate to the oil industry and the forces of global capitalism while every one of us marches inexorably to eventual death.

Gore is not even setting us straight. It's implement Kyoto, now, or we all face eventual certainty of winding up 2 meters under.


I agree with you but I would caution using your first point (the snow storm becoming a rain storm) as evidence of climate change. This just fuels the anti-climate change/global warming crowd to say: "hey look its cold outside, global warming doesn't exist".
mrsocko





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Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bali was to provide a framework for a new global warming treaty to be negotiated by 2009. The Euro's wanted 25-40% reductions by 2020. This is what Canada and the U.S. agreed would be the framework.

I don't understand how it is the U.S. and Canda's fault whn they agreed to what the rest of the world wanted. Bali was only a first step. having the U.S. on board is good I would think.
Bill_in_Calgary





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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
Explain one thing for me, please. In Canada's northern territories, we've found ample evidence that it was once a tropical zone. Why?

-Mac


Mac,
Prior to 50 million years ago the earth was in a Hothouse condition for tens of millions of years. There was no permanent ice anywhere on the planet. Most of the earth was tropical. Then things started to cool. 2.7 million years ago the temperature dropped big time and here we are in an iceage with 10,000 year interglacial warm spells. We are now at the end of the latest one. We may be on borrowed time geologically speaking.

For a quick overview see:
http://www.spacecenter.dk/rese.....limatology

Bill
mrsocko





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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
Quote:
Explain one thing for me, please. In Canada's northern territories, we've found ample evidence that it was once a tropical zone. Why?



Genesis 1:6 says:
Quote:
And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky."


According to the Bible there was water above the earth and water on the surface. In between was the sky. If sunlight were to enter the sky after being filtered thru water the effect would be like a giant green house which would cause a fairly uniform temperature around the world.

Well that's what the Bible says anyway. Or you can believe what the scientists tell us. They are never wrong(except about global warming) :P
Mac





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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Loads of great answers!!

Climate change is a fact of existence on this Earth. I'm neither arrogant nor nihilistic enough to believe human activity is the cause of this naturally occurring process.

This essay is a bit long but worth the read... Global Warming in a Nutshell

-Mac
mrsocko





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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THIS IS GLOBAL WARMING IN A NUTSHELL.

"I'm global warming and I'm in this nutshell. What kind of nut has a shell like this . How did I get into a this nut shell. I mean really."(apologies to Austin Powers)
Big Tuna





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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:

Climate change is a fact of existence on this Earth. I'm neither arrogant nor nihilistic enough to believe human activity is the cause of this naturally occurring process.



Scientific opinion on climate change

I guess all these national and international scientific organizations are wrong and you're right.

Quote:
With the release of the revised statement by the American Association of Petroleum Geologists, no scientific bodies of national or international standing are known to reject the basic findings of human influence on recent climate.


So I'm on the fence here trying to figure out who to believe, all these scientists or you. To help me out in my decision could you tell me what kind of scientific background you have?

Thanks.
FF_Canuck





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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Ask David Suzuki. He's self-sacrificing, as is Al Gore, Paul Desmairis, and Maurice Strong, for all of our futures.


If I didn't know better, I'd say you're being sarcastic. The 'carbon footprint' of any one of those fellows is greater that that of the entire membership of this board - unless we've got some rockstars or politicians in hiding.

Big Tuna,

You're going to impugn someone's credibility by quoting from a Wikipedia article? If you want to see criticism of Anthropogenic Global Warming from a variety of sources, take a look at this thread: Link

The article you linked to contained Oreske's survey of peer-reviewed research in 2004 that indicated a concensus in which 75% of the works reviewed endorsed AGW.

It is interesting that the Wikipedia article does not contain Dr. Schulte's follow-up survey of published works from 2004 - 2007. Using the same methodology in analyzing articles published after Oreske's survey, Schulte found that only 45% implicity or explicitly endorsed AGW - 6% specifically denied it, and a plurality (48%) refused to either deny or endorse. This seems to indicate that 'concensus', to the extent that it matters, is shifting away from AGW towards 'We don't know'.
Mac





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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Tuna wrote:
Scientific opinion on climate change

I guess all these national and international scientific organizations are wrong and you're right.

At one time, all the scientists once claimed the earth was flat too... You're trying to paint this as being an "either/or" situation and that's clearly not the case. When a group of scientists abandon the scientific method and you choose to believe their findings, you've got a problem.

Big Tuna wrote:
So I'm on the fence here trying to figure out who to believe, all these scientists or you. To help me out in my decision could you tell me what kind of scientific background you have?

Thanks.

On the fence. Right. That certainly doesn't appear to be the case but if it makes you feel better to claim so, groovy. So... what kind of scientific background do YOU have?

I'm not a scientist; just a honest police officer who knows how to use his mind for something other than a hat holder. The IPCC's executive summary outdoes the reports findings and they admit that, saying it's necessary so policy makers appreciate the gravity of the situation. Many, if not most, of the IPCC's findings have been debunked and their methodology found wanting.

Climate change has become the vehicle for scientists to get funding for their pet projects... and there's a good number of scientists who dispute the validity of the IPCC's claims, including several IPCC members.

If you want to run around in circles screaming "The sky is fallling!" go for it but don't expect everyone else to join you.

-Mac
JBG





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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FF_Canuck wrote:
Quote:
Ask David Suzuki. He's self-sacrificing, as is Al Gore, Paul Desmairis, and Maurice Strong, for all of our futures.


If I didn't know better, I'd say you're being sarcastic. The 'carbon footprint' of any one of those fellows is greater that that of the entire membership of this board - unless we've got some rockstars or politicians in hiding.
I am being totally sarcastic. They are all manipulators, basically bad people.
JBG





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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
Climate change has become the vehicle for scientists to get funding for their pet projects... and there's a good number of scientists who dispute the validity of the IPCC's claims, including several IPCC members.

If you want to run around in circles screaming "The sky is fallling!" go for it but don't expect everyone else to join you.

-Mac

You hit the nail on the head. I don't think that auto emissions made Greenland habitable for the Vikings.
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