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JBG





Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 823
Reputation: 93.1Reputation: 93.1
votes: 8
Location: NYC Area

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Tuna wrote:
I just showed you the info I found. I think the UN is a good source. Maybe it isn't. Since it is your statement it should be you who produces the facts to back it up. Find me other credible sources that might help make that statement true.
I read, on an annual basis, these reports from Freedom House(link), but a good summary of the Anglosphere's characteristics can be found here (link). I prefer these both to the hopelessly anti-US United Nations and its shreddable paper.

Big Tuna wrote:

I won't get into the the glorious history of justice and equality in the British empire. Tell that to my ancestors who were deported...Ah but we were not at war. The Acadians were neutral. We even gave all our weapons to the British as they requested. We weren't deported because we were at war with the English, we were deported because we wouldn't pledge allegiance to the Queen The treatment of the Acadians is not the only example of the British culture not being the poster boy for justice and equality.
Got a better one? France in Haiti? Belgians in the Congo? The (Dutch) Boers of South aAfrica? As far as the Hispanic World goes, the Arawak and Taino of the Caribbean are gone. The indisputably great Inca and Aztec civilizations were destroyed. I know that smallpox played a roll, but the English came with a far lighter hand than any other colonizer.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
Reputation: 104
votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Tuna wrote:
Ah but we were not at war. The Acadians were neutral. We even gave all our weapons to the British as they requested. We weren't deported because we were at war with the English, we were deported because we wouldn't pledge allegiance to the Queen.

The treatment of the Acadians is not the only example of the British culture not being the poster boy for justice and equality.

What "we" would you be speaking of? Unless you're some kind of miracle, you weren't expelled from anywhere. I would go so far as to estimate that you never met anyone who was expelled... or anyone who met anyone who was expelled since we're talking well over 200 years ago.

The most vile of sinners in the Bible weren't punished past the seventh generation. Do you intend to exceed that?

The only thing more annoying than someone applying modern standards of behaviour to ancient situations is someone who claims injury as a result of those long passed misdeeds.

The "Eagles" said it best... "Get Over It!!"

-Mac


Last edited by Mac on Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:44 am; edited 1 time in total
JBG





Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 823
Reputation: 93.1Reputation: 93.1
votes: 8
Location: NYC Area

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Tuna wrote:
Ah but we were not at war. The Acadians were neutral.
War was definitely brewing.
kwlafayette





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Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the point stands up well. Canada, New Zealand, US, India (India is especially great when compared to it neighbors) are all good places to live. Hong Kong, Singapore, the British left prosperity in their wake. Sure there were some failures, and mistakes made, and some brutal imperialism, but I think if you asked the people of Hong Kong if they would have been better off if the British were never in charge, the answer would be pretty obvious.
Big Tuna





Joined: 28 Nov 2007
Posts: 368
Reputation: 15
votes: 6

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JBG wrote:
Big Tuna wrote:
I just showed you the info I found. I think the UN is a good source. Maybe it isn't. Since it is your statement it should be you who produces the facts to back it up. Find me other credible sources that might help make that statement true.
I read, on an annual basis, these reports from Freedom House(link), but a good summary of the Anglosphere's characteristics can be found here (link). I prefer these both to the hopelessly anti-US United Nations and its shreddable paper.


Looking at the source you gave me:

http://www.freedomhouse.org/te.....;year=2007

That site also proves my point. That there are plenty of free countries and most are not English speaking. If you gave your source to somebody, who doesn't know what we are debating, and tell them to use your source to write an essay about what major factors contribute to a free country, I don't think their conclusion would be that being English-speaking is one of the common contributing factors..

Would be an interesting essay though!

Interesting note: It looks like Uganda even has better numbers than the U.S.

Anyway, I still don't think "Freedom speaks English" is a valid statement.
Big Tuna





Joined: 28 Nov 2007
Posts: 368
Reputation: 15
votes: 6

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JBG wrote:
Big Tuna wrote:
Ah but we were not at war. The Acadians were neutral.
War was definitely brewing.


That's not true. Not with the Acadians. We gave up all our weapons: not the best plan if you're "brewing" a war.

The Acadians just wanted to live in peace and stay out of the mess.
Big Tuna





Joined: 28 Nov 2007
Posts: 368
Reputation: 15
votes: 6

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
Big Tuna wrote:
Ah but we were not at war. The Acadians were neutral. We even gave all our weapons to the British as they requested. We weren't deported because we were at war with the English, we were deported because we wouldn't pledge allegiance to the Queen.

The treatment of the Acadians is not the only example of the British culture not being the poster boy for justice and equality.

What "we" would you be speaking of? Unless you're some kind of miracle, you weren't expelled from anywhere. I would go so far as to estimate that you never met anyone who was expelled... or anyone who met anyone who was expelled since we're talking well over 200 years ago.

The most vile of sinners in the Bible weren't punished past the seventh generation. Do you intend to exceed that?

The only thing more annoying than someone applying modern standards of behaviour to ancient situations is someone who claims injury as a result of those long passed misdeeds.

The "Eagles" said it best... "Get Over It!!"

-Mac


I wasn't being "someone who claims injury as a result of those long passed misdeeds." whatesoever.

I didn't bring up the history of the British empire:

kwlafayette wrote:
It is all about the glorious history of the British Empire, and the legacy of democracy that it left.


I don't think it's unreasonable to discuss the past in response to this statement.
Big Tuna





Joined: 28 Nov 2007
Posts: 368
Reputation: 15
votes: 6

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JBG wrote:

Big Tuna wrote:

I won't get into the the glorious history of justice and equality in the British empire. Tell that to my ancestors who were deported...Ah but we were not at war. The Acadians were neutral. We even gave all our weapons to the British as they requested. We weren't deported because we were at war with the English, we were deported because we wouldn't pledge allegiance to the Queen The treatment of the Acadians is not the only example of the British culture not being the poster boy for justice and equality.
Got a better one? France in Haiti? Belgians in the Congo? The (Dutch) Boers of South aAfrica? As far as the Hispanic World goes, the Arawak and Taino of the Caribbean are gone. The indisputably great Inca and Aztec civilizations were destroyed. I know that smallpox played a roll, but the English came with a far lighter hand than any other colonizer.


Yes the small pox. I'm sure the Mic Mac here on the east coast didn't think it was so light when they were given pieces of blankets from small pox victims as gifts and when small pox victims were dumped into their water supply.

Anyway I'm not trying to argue that the British colonization was worse than other colonizations but I will argue that it isn't any better (which you seem to be arguing).

Which all brings me back to my main point that I don't beleive "Freedom Speaks English" is a valid statement.


Last edited by Big Tuna on Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
Reputation: 104
votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
The only thing more annoying than someone applying modern standards of behaviour to ancient situations is someone who claims injury as a result of those long passed misdeeds.

Big Tuna wrote:
I wasn't being "someone who claims injury as a result of those long passed misdeeds." whatesoever.

I didn't bring up the history of the British empire:

kwlafayette wrote:
It is all about the glorious history of the British Empire, and the legacy of democracy that it left.


I don't think it's unreasonable to discuss the past in response to this statement.

Perhaps you didn't exactly claim injury but you were certainly applying modern standards to ancient situations... and you said "we" indicating you personified that group. So how long do you intend to pursue the sins of ancestors?

-Mac
FF_Canuck





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 3360
Reputation: 73.4
votes: 17
Location: Southern Alberta

PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Tuna wrote:
I guess all these national and international scientific organizations are wrong and you're right.


Some awesome snark from Ace of Spades on the concensus issue:

Ace wrote:
Since we're apparently doing science by polling now, I guess we're still behind since the global warming alarmists have "over a thousand" scientists and we only have over 400; so what's that, like 65%-35% at best? Hopefully, though, with some push-polling and direct mailing, and maybe a few celebrity endorsements, we can get those numbers up a bit and thereby settle the "science" in our favor.

As Arthur C. Clarke once said, a sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from public relations and political campaigning.
JBG





Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 823
Reputation: 93.1Reputation: 93.1
votes: 8
Location: NYC Area

PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FF_Canuck wrote:

Some awesome snark from Ace of Spades on the concensus issue:
Great find. My type of sarcasm totally.
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