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Bill_in_Calgary





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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
Loads of great answers!!

Climate change is a fact of existence on this Earth. I'm neither arrogant nor nihilistic enough to believe human activity is the cause of this naturally occurring process.

This essay is a bit long but worth the read... Global Warming in a Nutshell

-Mac


Mac, Thanks for the link to the essay. It's a well done summary of a large amount of info. I read it all.
Hope you get a copy of The Chilling Stars from your kids for Christmas.

Bill
Mac





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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill_in_Calgary wrote:
Mac, Thanks for the link to the essay. It's a well done summary of a large amount of info. I read it all.
Hope you get a copy of The Chilling Stars from your kids for Christmas.

Bill

I got the Tom Flanagan book for my birthday and I heard I'm getting Mulroney's autobiography for Christmas.

-Mac
biggie





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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:51 am    Post subject: Re: US and Canadian Obstruction at Bali Dooms All Humans Reply with quote

JBG wrote:
There are two big pieces of news tonight:

  1. The big snow they predicted for the New York City area is instead going to be a rainstorm (link); and
  2. The US and Canada successfully sabotaged the setting of numerical Greenhouse Gas targets at Bali (link)
I'm thus concerned that Canada's and the US's obstructionist tactics at Bali are dooming us all to a certain demise. Specifically, because of the US and Canadian policies, every one of us now on the earth is going to die. Do you realize that? Our politicians twiddle their thumbs, capitulate to the oil industry and the forces of global capitalism while every one of us marches inexorably to eventual death.

Gore is not even setting us straight. It's implement Kyoto, now, or we all face eventual certainty of winding up 2 meters under.


get a clue...

Try looking into the activities of Russia at said conference.

Do you ever get tired of regurgitating everything you hear on tv?
JBG





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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:12 am    Post subject: Re: US and Canadian Obstruction at Bali Dooms All Humans Reply with quote

biggie wrote:
JBG wrote:
There are two big pieces of news tonight:

  1. The big snow they predicted for the New York City area is instead going to be a rainstorm (link); and
  2. The US and Canada successfully sabotaged the setting of numerical Greenhouse Gas targets at Bali (link)
I'm thus concerned that Canada's and the US's obstructionist tactics at Bali are dooming us all to a certain demise. Specifically, because of the US and Canadian policies, every one of us now on the earth is going to die. Do you realize that? Our politicians twiddle their thumbs, capitulate to the oil industry and the forces of global capitalism while every one of us marches inexorably to eventual death.

Gore is not even setting us straight. It's implement Kyoto, now, or we all face eventual certainty of winding up 2 meters under.


get a clue...

Try looking into the activities of Russia at said conference.

Do you ever get tired of regurgitating everything you hear on tv?

If you checked your PM's or read more carefully you'd realize that the post was satire. Everyone is eventually going to die.

Chretien's statement that "if we don't ratify Kyoto in 30 years people are going to start dieing" was the inspiration.
FascistLibertarian





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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not me because

I'm gonna live forever
I'm gonna learn how to fly--high!

I feel it comin' together
People will see me and cry. Fame!
I'm gonna make it to heaven
Light up the sky like a flame. Fame!
Baby, remember my name
Remember, remember, remember, remember,
Remember, remember, remember, remember.

:lol:
IcemanA





Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 17
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: US and Canadian Obstruction at Bali Dooms All Humans Reply with quote

JBG wrote:
Specifically, because of the US and Canadian policies, every one of us now on the earth is going to die. Do you realize that?


I am absolutely shocked at these incredulous claims. Noone, not even the IPCC has claimed everyone on earth will die.

Granted it's true, we all have limited lifespans, and we will all eventually die...but noone, even those many of us believe to be of suspect motivations, has claimed that "we're all gonna die".

The worst predictions made by anyone of authority are that, if unchecked,
Quote:
World temperatures could rise by between 1.1 and 6.4 °C (2.0 and 11.5 °F) during the 21st century (table 3) and that:

* Sea levels will probably rise by 18 to 59 cm (7.08 to 23.22 in) [table 3].
* There is a confidence level >90% that there will be more frequent warm spells, heat waves and heavy rainfall.
* There is a confidence level >66% that there will be an increase in droughts, tropical cyclones and extreme high tides.


Now some of these things could cause deaths in under-developed countries, but not one of these, the main effects predicted by the IPCC AR4, is anywhere NEAR claiming mass extinction.

Even if we do NOTHING to slow GHGs and the WORST case scenarios above occur, lets look at the impact (in Canada, at least);
- 2 foot sea level rise: People dumb enough to build their homes 1 foot above maximum high tides will occasionally have 1 foot of water in their homes.
- More heat waves: In Canada, we use more electricity for A/C. Several people who work outside all day die from heat exhaustion, and there are political calls for employers to keep their employees hydrated and cool.
- More heavy rain: Crops grow faster, some people realize they have leaky gutters, and rivers need to be shored up a bit to prevent some flooding.
- Droughts, cyclones, and high tides: Tides again just affect houses on coasts, cyclones are the expected CAUSE of the heavy rains above, and, as usual, cause some power outages. And droughts... Water rationing, more conservation initiatives.

How this spells the end of humanity, I'll never know. Yes, some effects will be worse in third-world countries, but Aid will increase. But again, how you pull the assertion of the end of humanity is beyond me (never mind the fact that these effects are all projected for 100 years from now, with plenty of time to prepare (ie sell your house built on sand))
IcemanA





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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: US and Canadian Obstruction at Bali Dooms All Humans Reply with quote

JBG wrote:
There are two big pieces of news
If you checked your PM's or read more carefully you'd realize that the post was satire. Everyone is eventually going to die.


My apologies, I didn't see this post before typing out a scathing rebuttal ;-). Hopefully someone learns something anyways.
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As satire, JBG's post is supremely funny. The fact that he sucked Big Tuna in? Priceless!
Big Tuna





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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
As satire, JBG's post is supremely funny. The fact that he sucked Big Tuna in? Priceless!


Funny maybe... or sad that his satire makes more sense than his views on climate change.

I should have known better with a tag line like "Freedom Speaks English". That doesn't even make any sense.
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Freedom speaks English makes more sense than almost anything I have read in the news today. It is all about the glorious history of the British Empire, and the legacy of democracy that it left. Stuff that they don't teach the youngsters in social studies anymore.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."

Just one of the many contributions of the British to justice and equality.
JBG





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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Tuna wrote:
kwlafayette wrote:
As satire, JBG's post is supremely funny. The fact that he sucked Big Tuna in? Priceless!
Thanks.I aim to educate and entertain at the same time.
Big Tuna wrote:

Funny maybe... or sad that his satire makes more sense than his views on climate change.
And what do you imagine my views are? I am someone who believes that climate change is constant and that the environmental movement is making arses of themselves, and ensuring a huge, counterproductive backlash.This will occur if implementation ever occurs, when middle class lifestyles take a huge hit for no obvious benefit. Basically, those kinds of "out of touch" poliicies doomed Carter and what had been a fifty year dominance by the US Democratic Party.
Big Tuna wrote:

I should have known better with a tag line like "Freedom Speaks English". That doesn't even make any sense.
If you spun the globe and stopped at each English-speaking country, you'd see a shocking contrast with the surrounding countries in terms of freedom, standards of living, national pride and happiness. Try it.

Your only exceptions will be Israel (arguably English-speaking), the Scandinavian countries, and a few fly-speck countries like Switzerland or Costa Rica.

Just take as an example the contrast between the levels of prosperity in the English and Spanish-speaking world. The levels of poverty in Mexico are truly shocking, especially when you stop to consider that they've been major oil producers for almost 40 years. Cuba and Venezuela are wretched tyrannies. Peru and Ecuador are beset with political instabilitiy and guerrilla movements. Argentina's current President's campaign was funded with $800,000 in a suitcase from Hugo Chavez.

Thoughts?
Big Tuna





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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JBG wrote:

Big Tuna wrote:

I should have known better with a tag line like "Freedom Speaks English". That doesn't even make any sense.
If you spun the globe and stopped at each English-speaking country, you'd see a shocking contrast with the surrounding countries in terms of freedom, standards of living, national pride and happiness. Try it.

Your only exceptions will be Israel (arguably English-speaking), the Scandinavian countries, and a few fly-speck countries like Switzerland or Costa Rica.



Ok I tried it:

Actually if we look at the UN's Human Development Index ranking:

Human Development Index

Quote:

1. Iceland
2. Norway
3. Australia
4. Canada
5. Ireland
6. Sweden
7. Switzerland
8. Japan
9. Netherlands
10. France
11. Finland
12. United States
13. Spain
14. Denmark
15. Austria
16. United Kingdom
17. Belgium
18. Luxembourg
19. New Zealand
20. Italy
21. Hong Kong, China (SAR)
22. Germany
23. Israel
24. Greece
25. Singapore
26. Korea (Rep. of)
27. Slovenia
28. Cyprus
29. Portugal
30. Brunei Darussalam
31. Barbados
32. Czech Republic
33. Kuwait
34. Malta
35. Qatar
36. Hungary
37. Poland
38. Argentina
39. United Arab Emirates
40. Chile


In the top 40 countries you'll notice that most countries are NOT English speaking countries. (I may have missed one or two... not sure what goes on in Luxembourg).

And if we look at the worlds top ten happiest countries:

The world’s happiest country is Denmark

Bahama's and Canada (which has two official languages) make the list. The other 8 are not english speaking countries.

And lets look at Africa:

Quote:
The francophone countries include the republics of Benin, Burkina Faso, Togo, the Ivory Coast (Côte d'Ivoire), Guinea and Senegal while the remaining states of Nigeria, Ghana, Liberia, Sierra Leone, and the Gambia have English as their official language.


http://www.mbendi.co.za/land/af/p0005.htm

When it comes to Africa it seems like the English-speaking countries are the worst when it comes to Freedom.

Because I'm french.. do I not speak "Freedom"?

Anyway my point is that language has nothing to do with freedom. I think many other factors play a role and one of them is culture. But there are many cultures that may lead to a good society and many that may lead to a bad one. Either way that statement isn't correct.

Interesting stuff though.

I won't get into the the glorious history of justice and equality in the British empire. Tell that to my ancestors who were deported.

Sorry to derail the thread. Maybe this should be moved to its own.
JBG





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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Tuna wrote:

Ok I tried it:

Actually if we look at the UN's Human Development Index ranking:


Human Development Index

UN Development Index according to Big Tuna wrote:

1. Iceland
2. Norway
3. Australia
4. Canada
5. Ireland

6. Sweden
7. Switzerland
8. Japan
9. Netherlands
10. France
11. Finland
12. United States
In the top 40 countries you'll notice that most countries are NOT English speaking countries. (I may have missed one or two... not sure what goes on in Luxembourg).

Those "rankings" are themselves suspect, given their soiurces. However, the only ones that overtop three English-speaking countries are Scandinavian, and I expressly made reference to that. Given the size of the dwelllings that people livei in in some of the "better off"countries live in (Japan is a glaring example) I doubt that the UN Index is an appropriate measure of standard of living. And that Index does nothing to rate political freedom of government transparency. I find it very hard to believe that Spain's living standard exceeds the UK's, Belgium's, Denmark's or New Zealand's.
UN Development Index according to Big Tuna wrote:

13. Spain
14. Denmark
15. Austria
16. United Kingdom
17. Belgium
18. Luxembourg
19. New Zealand
20. Italy
21. Hong Kong, China (SAR)
22. Germany
23. Israel
24. Greece
25. Singapore
26. Korea (Rep. of)
27. Slovenia
28. Cyprus
29. Portugal
30. Brunei Darussalam
31. Barbados
32. Czech Republic
33. Kuwait
34. Malta
35. Qatar
36. Hungary
37. Poland
38. Argentina
39. United Arab Emirates
40. Chile

Big Tuna wrote:

In the top 40 countries you'll notice that most countries are NOT English speaking countries. (I may have missed one or two... not sure what goes on in Luxembourg).
And if we look at the worlds top ten happiest countries:

The world’s happiest country is Denmark

Bahama's and Canada (which has two official languages) make the list. The other 8 are not english speaking countries.

How is "happiness" measured?
Big Tuna wrote:

And lets look at Africa:

Quote:
The francophone countries include the republics of Benin, Burkina Faso, Togo, the Ivory Coast (Côte d'Ivoire), Guinea and Senegal while the remaining states of Nigeria, Ghana, Liberia, Sierra Leone, and the Gambia have English as their official language.


http://www.mbendi.co.za/land/af/p0005.htm

When it comes to Africa it seems like the English-speaking countries are the worst when it comes to Freedom.

Africa is its own bizarre story. But again, I find it hard to believe that South Africa is not still at the top of the heap in living standards and freedom in Africa.

Big Tuna wrote:

Because I'm french.. do I not speak "Freedom"?

Anyway my point is that language has nothing to do with freedom.
But language is tied to culture, and culture is tied to freedom.

Big Tuna wrote:
I think many other factors play a role and one of them is culture. But there are many cultures that may lead to a good society and many that may lead to a bad one. Either way that statement isn't correct.

Interesting stuff though.

I won't get into the the glorious history of justice and equality in the British empire. Tell that to my ancestors who were deported.


Ah, the history of Acadie. That was a war, and the Brits were about the gentlest conquerors around. Or else a lot more would have been settled at the Plains of Abraham.
Big Tuna wrote:
Sorry to derail the thread.
I don;'t mind disagreement. As long as you respect my opinions, I'll respect yours, even if mine are tinged by my being an American member of the Democratic Party, and a bit left-wing.
Big Tuna





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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just showed you the info I found. I think the UN is a good source. Maybe it isn't. Since it is your statement it should be you who produces the facts to back it up. Find me other credible sources that might help make that statement true.

JBG wrote:
Big Tuna wrote:

I won't get into the the glorious history of justice and equality in the British empire. Tell that to my ancestors who were deported.


Ah, the history of Acadie. That was a war, and the Brits were about the gentlest conquerors around. Or else a lot more would have been settled at the Plains of Abraham.


Ah but we were not at war. The Acadians were neutral. We even gave all our weapons to the British as they requested. We weren't deported because we were at war with the English, we were deported because we wouldn't pledge allegiance to the Queen.

The treatment of the Acadians is not the only example of the British culture not being the poster boy for justice and equality.
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When the Tuna speaks of deported, is he referring to the Huguenots? That would be protestant French expelled from France who resettled in England and elsewhere. Historically speaking, the reference is not at all clear.
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