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gc





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crazymamma wrote:
Please can you stop calling it a veil?

I just took that word from the title of the relevant thread: Choken Nearly to Death for Refusing to Wear the Veil in T.O.
If it offends you, I'll call it a burka.
Bleatmop





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crazymamma wrote:
gc wrote:
How does Canada encourage forcing women to wear a veil?



Please can you stop calling it a veil? By using that word you are white washing what it is. It really isn't a veil at all. A veil is a gauzy, light, see thru little number that covers a woman head just past her chin in the front,something like for a wedding or a funeral. What you are talking about is a burka, a sexless, non identifying, eraser of individuality and is an affront to most western women as it is seen as a sign of the oppression of women and male dominance/ownership.


Well stated. I couldn't agree more.
Craig
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
How about some bible quotes?:


NOBODY IS SAYING THAT THE BIBLE DOESN'T SAY SOME SIMILAR THINGS...

1. LOOKING AROUND THE WORLD THERE AREN'T VERY MANY HEADS BEING CUT OFF IN THE NAME OF THE BIBLE.

2. WE ARE CHRISTIAN. SO THE QUOTES YOU PROVIDED DO NOT CONCERN US. YOU SEEM TO THINK THAT BECAUSE THE BIBLE HAS SIMILAR QUOTES THAT WE SHOULDN'T BE CONCERNED WITH ISLAM - THEY WANT TO KILL US - INCLUDING YOU
FascistLibertarian





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A hijab and a burka are different things.......
I have never seen a women in Canada wearing a burka, Iím sure some do, but really do you think their numbers are over 1,000? I hijab isnít really anymore constricting than what Mennonites wear.

Quote:
Christians are more socially evolved


This is an interesting statement, and I think gets to the heart of what we are arguing about. Here's the thing, people who dislike Islam want it both ways. I think we can all agree that the way certain Christians behaved in the past was horrible and some Christians are now more progressive (what you would term Ďsocial evolutioní). I do feel you could hold the position that there is something wrong with a religion or that there is something wrong with certain people who practice a religion. I feel people here are saying both, that there is something wrong with Islam AS WELL AS something wrong with people who follow Islam. I would assume you would agree that there are Muslisms who are more 'socially evolved' than some Christians. In the past Islam was more socially evolved than Christianity. It stands to reason that Islam, as a whole, could become more progressive in the future.

If you judged Christians during periods where they were less socially evolved would you blame the religion or the social and political aspects of the period?

Calling Christians more Ďsocially evolvedí than Muslims totally depends on context. The Christians in Kenya would be a prime example of Christians who are not progressive. Should we blame the religion for this, or the social circumstances surrounding the country, or both?
Do you think that Christians are more Ďsocially evolvedí and Muslims less because of their religion? I would argue itís due to political and social factors.
Anyways the entire statement is a generalization. In my experiences in Canada I have found Canadian Muslims no more or less socially evolved than anyone else (and have actually had nicer responses from them than Christians to certain aspects of my personal life that ALL Monotheism frowns on).

Quote:
Are Christian countries killing gays (as a matter of national policy)?


They have in the past. This change is due to social, rather than religious, factors. It really varies case by case. I certainly wouldnít go to Saudi Arabia or Iran, however Kuwait and UAE are different stories. I would not go to a Christian theocracy which literally interrupted the New Testament as the basis for their legal system. Such countries no longer exist due to social, not religious, reasons. There is only one country which is a Christian theocracy, and really how many people live in Vatican City? I know nothing about its legal code but I somehow suspect they donít use biblical punishment.

Quote:
For wrongdoing Jews, Allah has prepared a painful doom. (4:160-161)

4:160 So, then, for the wickedness committed by those who followed the Jewish faith did We deny unto them certain of the good things of life which [aforetime] had been allowed to them; [174] and [We did this] for their having so often turned away from the path of God, [175]
4:161 and [for] their taking usury although it had been forbidden to them, and their wrongful devouring of other people's possessions. And for those from among them who [continue to] deny the truth We have readied grievous suffering.


Well there is a huge difference here. Your passage says jews are doomed for their wrongdoings. My passage says that Jews are denied certain things under Muslim rule (although historically Muslim majorities treated Christian and Jewish minorities better than they were treated as the minority) and that unbelievers are doomed .

Care to show me a religion that claims itís way isnít the path to salvation?

You are right about two things though, I donít see Muslims as a homogeneous group which is the 'enemy' and I donít believe we are in a war with Islam. I do believe we are at war with radical Islam, to be sure, but the type of black and white comments put forward by members of this community only serve to polarize both sides and push more people into the extremist camp.
JBG





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
FascistLibertarian wrote:
Or maybe Ill just wait until a Christian does something bad, then post a link to it and a really insightful comment like "this religion sucks"


Keep cheering for the enemy buddy.

*********8
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
There are some who are not grateful for Western freedoms. As a Canadian singer, Joni Mitchell sang, in another context "you don't know what you've got till it's gone".

Freedom is not free.
gc





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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
NOBODY IS SAYING THAT THE BIBLE DOESN'T SAY SOME SIMILAR THINGS...

Nobody is saying that the Quran doesn't say those things either.
Quote:
2. WE ARE CHRISTIAN. SO THE QUOTES YOU PROVIDED DO NOT CONCERN US.

Why not?
Quote:
YOU SEEM TO THINK THAT BECAUSE THE BIBLE HAS SIMILAR QUOTES THAT WE SHOULDN'T BE CONCERNED WITH ISLAM - THEY WANT TO KILL US - INCLUDING YOU

That's not what I said. My point is, and has always been, that just because a particular holy book has quotes which say to kill non-believers does NOT mean that everyone who identifies with that particular religion want to kill non-believers. People should be judged on their actions, not what is written in their holy book.
mrsocko





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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I would not go to a Christian theocracy which literally interrupted the New Testament as the basis for their legal system. Such countries no longer exist due to social, not religious, reasons. There is only one country which is a Christian theocracy, and really how many people live in Vatican City? I know nothing about its legal code but I somehow suspect they donít use biblical punishment.


Could you give me an example of a punishment for breaking a law proscribed by the New Testament that you would be concerned about?
Craig
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
People should be judged on their actions, not what is written in their holy book.


So, if I created a religion that said the following...

1. All black people should be hung.

2. All gays should be sent to mental institutions.

3. Women should not be allowed out of the house.

And 9 out of 10 followers of my religion adhered to these tenets you wouldn't be critical of my religion? And question the sanity of those who followed it?
gc





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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
And 9 out of 10 followers of my religion adhered to these tenets you wouldn't be critical of my religion? And question the sanity of those who followed it?

I don't believe 9 out of 10 followers are killing non-believers. I know quite a few Muslims, and if that was the case, I'm pretty sure I'd be dead by now.
gc





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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
Could you give me an example of a punishment for breaking a law proscribed by the New Testament that you would be concerned about?

Well, if I was a homosexual I'd be pretty concerned: Romans 1
mrsocko





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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
People should be judged on their actions, not what is written in their holy book.


A religious person should be judge on how their actions line up with what their Holy Book says. If they were people would not be going around saying.

Quote:
I think we can all agree that the way certain Christians behaved in the past was horrible


People are outraged by the attrocities Muslim extremist's commit and rightly so.

But I don't see alot of Christians protesting the war in Iraq started under false pretenses by a so called Christian named George Bush. Anyone that sends soldiers to kill and be killed should make damn sure there is a good legitimate reason for the war and that the war will make the world a better place if they win it.
JBG





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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
But I don't see alot of Christians protesting the war in Iraq started under false pretenses by a so called Christian named George Bush. Anyone that sends soldiers to kill and be killed should make damn sure there is a good legitimate reason for the war and that the war will make the world a better place if they win it.
I don't think that Bush or any other Commander-in-Chief owes it to anyone to divulge classified information. Saddam apologists are forgetting his almost constant warfare against his own people and surrounding people and his payment of families of suicide bombers to fuel murder in a core ally of the US.

Are you a self-hating Westerner?
mrsocko





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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't think that Bush or any other Commander-in-Chief owes it to anyone to divulge classified information.


Where the hell did I say he did.

I said he should have a good reason for the war, not some bullshit connection to 9/11 or made up WMD excuse.

Quote:
Saddam apologists are forgetting his almost constant warfare against his own people and surrounding people and his payment of families of suicide bombers to fuel murder in a core ally of the US.


Then why didn't most of the international community back Bush. And why are many people saying they should bring war crimes against the ones who did like Blair.

I support the war In Afganistan. It's making the world a safer place. I don't support George Bush waging the dog.

You can shove your Saddam apologists blast up your ass too. Saddam got the just desserts for his crimes. But 100's of thousands of Iragi's are dead because of this war and I as a Christian am appalled that no one cares.
gc





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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
I said he should have a good reason for the war, not some bullshit connection to 9/11 or made up WMD excuse.

...

I support the war In Afganistan. It's making the world a safer place. I don't support George Bush waging the dog.

You can shove your Saddam apologists blast up your ass too. Saddam got the just desserts for his crimes. But 100's of thousands of Iragi's are dead because of this war and I as a Christian am appalled that no one cares.

Well said.
Mac





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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
If you have no answer, then you must never again equate Muslim evilness to Christian evilness.

I wasn't comparing "evilness" (nice strawman, though).

Stephen suggested Craig's generalization regarding Muslims was over the top. Craig accused Stephen of being PC. I disagree that Stephen was being PC and used Christians to make that point... which provoked your reaction on both PC and Christians so I guess my point was only partially effective since you didn't "get" that I wasn't drawing a direct comparison.

The simple fact is there is no modern comparison; Christianity "grew up" (mostly) but Islam is trapped in the past and badly in need of a Muslim version of Martin Luther to pound a few objections into the thick skulls of the imams.

-Mac
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