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kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So many logical fallacies, so little time. Lets go back to basics, start with what you can prove. How many of these "vast majority of Muslims" have you personally interviewed to come to your authoritative conclusion? Or did you just maybe make something up that sounds good? Sounds like false authority to me. I have observed real world events, film directors getting killed, fatwas issued against cartoonists and fiction writers, bombs, hijackings, shootings. There were massive demonstrations the world over denouncing the Mohamed cartoon; I heard of no counter demonstrations in support of free speech (although a few individuals did speak up). What conclusions do you draw from this? Well, it would seem that you think "the vast majority", despite evidence to the contrary, condemn these events. I in contrast, look at the show of hands; I see a lot of violent Muslims, a few peaceful individuals, and lots (the vast majority) of abstainers. So, going by the people who have publicly declared which side they are on, my opinion is backed by objective reality. Yours, not so much.

Call names if you wish, it only helps my argument. Also, it gives me a laugh, so keep it up.
JBG





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
JBG wrote:
Canada is supposed to be a free country. That means that we have failed the daughter, by allowing the "group rights" of the Muslims to subordinate her individual rights.

What do you mean by that? How did we "allow" this to happen? It is illegal, and the people responsible are being charged with murder. I hope they receive an appropriate sentence. What more should we do?
They should not be facilitated in forming their own enclaves which are "no go" zones for police and mainstream Canadians. Their "culture" should not be subsidized or encouraged.
FascistLibertarian





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your saying I use logical fallacies and my points make you laugh? Thats really intresting, I feel the same way about you.

Quote:
How many of these "vast majority of Muslims" have you personally interviewed to come to your authoritative conclusion?


How many Canadian Muslims have you observed being involved in "film directors getting killed, fatwas issued against cartoonists and fiction writers, bombs, hijackings, shootings, and massive demonstrations the world over denouncing the Mohamed cartoon"?

By vast majority I was speaking of every Muslim I have met in Canada. How many violent Muslims in Canada do you know? The media is always ready to jump on a story involving Islam and anything negative, that doesnt mean you can make huge generalizations about an entire religion.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/.....index.html

Heres a article, read it, and think how it would be phrased if the roles of Christians (whose religion isnt even MENTIONED much less blamed for their acts of violence and anti-Jewish comments) and Muslims were reversed. Do you think it would get more coverage? Do you think you would ad it to your list of 'proof' that Muslims are violent? Why is the religion of the Muslim relevant (when all he did was come to the defense of people) but the attackers irrelevant?
Craig
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
Craig wrote:
Be equally careful not to do nothing out of fear of offending people.

By that token, should we therefore label all Christians as raving lunatics based on the actions of a few Christian splinter cults like David Koresh's followers or Jim Jones' followers?

Yes, I know it's "not the same" but I don't think Stephen is being "PC" by mentioning not all Muslims are extremists.

-Mac


I didn't say say he was. My point is just as valid as his.

Oh, and as far as Christians are concerned. I am one. So I tend to be more afraid of the people who want to kill me than the ones who don't.
Craig
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FascistLibertarian wrote:
Heres a article, read it, and think how it would be phrased if the roles of Christians (whose religion isnt even MENTIONED much less blamed for their acts of violence and anti-Jewish comments) and Muslims were reversed. Do you think it would get more coverage? Do you think you would ad it to your list of 'proof' that Muslims are violent? Why is the religion of the Muslim relevant (when all he did was come to the defense of people) but the attackers irrelevant?


You people just don't get it. Christians don't want to kill me. So forgive me if I'm less concerned with less. We are at war folks. Sure not everyone is fighting but it is a war regardless. I'm going to cheer for my team thank you very much.
JBG





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FascistLibertarian wrote:
YHow many Canadian Muslims have you observed being involved in "film directors getting killed, fatwas issued against cartoonists and fiction writers, bombs, hijackings, shootings, and massive demonstrations the world over denouncing the Mohamed cartoon"?
What about that father who recently killed his daughter for refusing to wear a hijab? In Canada.
FascistLibertarian





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What about that father who recently killed his daughter for refusing to wear a hijab? In Canada.


Ignoring that Islamic women do not have to wear the headscarf according to the Koran and that the entire muslism community has come out against the father I think we all know this story is getting covered because the killer is muslim.

Lets be honest, the sikh girl who moved to punjab for her lover that her family in Vancouver didnt like so they paid money to have her killed or the North York Church going man who killed his daughter two months ago, both of these would have recieved national coverage, and you would know what Im talking about, if the killers had been Muslim not sikh and chirstian.

If this guy had killed his daughter over something equally stupid but he wasnt Islamic, ie she didnt wear a cross and was catholic, this story would be buried on page 10.

Quote:
Christians don't want to kill me.


Neither do most Muslims. You want to turn this into an us or them equation, but it really isnt.
Bleatmop





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought I'd contribute to the conversation by adding some quotes from the Quran.

Quote:
Don't bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. (2:6)

Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years, but they are going to hell (2:96)

We should cast terror in the hearts of those who disbelieve. Their habitation is the Fire. (3:151)

For wrongdoing Jews, Allah has prepared a painful doom. (4:160-161)

Christians will be burned in the fire (5:72)

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.(But if they desist in their unbelief, don't kill them). 2:191-192


Clearly Islam is a peaceful, tolerant religion, and it is only the extremists that are causing trouble. More here.
FascistLibertarian





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where did you get those? A real Quran? That you, I am sure, have bothered to read.

Or did you go to some hick website and copy what they said without checking it over?

http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/

2:6 BEHOLD, as for those who are bent on denying the truth [6] - it is all one to them whether thou warnest them or dost not warn them: they will not believe.

2:96 And thou wilt most certainly find that they cling to life more eagerly than any other people, even more than those who are bent on ascribing divinity to other beings beside God: every one of them would love to live a thousand years, although the grant of long life could not save him from suffering [in the hereafter]: for God sees all that they do.

3:151 Into the hearts of those who are bent on denying the truth We shall cast dread in return for their ascribing divinity, side by side with God, to other beings - [something] for which He has never bestowed any warrant from on high; [106] and their goal is the fire - and how evil that abode of evildoers!

4:160 So, then, for the wickedness committed by those who followed the Jewish faith did We deny unto them certain of the good things of life which [aforetime] had been allowed to them; [174] and [We did this] for their having so often turned away from the path of God, [175]

4:161 and [for] their taking usury although it had been forbidden to them, and their wrongful devouring of other people's possessions. And for those from among them who [continue to] deny the truth We have readied grievous suffering.

5:72 Indeed, the truth deny they who say, "Behold, God is the Christ, son of Mary" - seeing that the Christ [himself] said, "O children of Israel! Worship God [alone], who is my Sustainer as well as your Sustainer." [88] Behold, whoever ascribes divinity to any being beside God, unto him will God deny paradise, and his goal shall be the fire: and such evildoers will have none to succour them!

2:191 And slay them wherever you may come upon them, and drive them away from wherever they drove you away - for oppression is even worse than killing. [168] And fight not against them near the Inviolable House of Worship unless they fight against you there first; [169] but if they fight against you, slay them: such shall be the recompense of those who deny the truth.
2:192 But if they desist-behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.


Maybe I could go pull some versus' out of the bible which I could translate very poorly from Latin, Paul and Revelation maybe, and it would prove, along with my evidence of bad catholics like the IRA and Guy Fawkes, that Christians are evil and their religion is violent.

Or maybe Ill just wait until a Christian does something bad, then post a link to it and a really insightful comment like "this religion sucks"
Craig
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FascistLibertarian wrote:
Or maybe Ill just wait until a Christian does something bad, then post a link to it and a really insightful comment like "this religion sucks"


Keep cheering for the enemy buddy.

Look around the world. Are Christian countries killing women for adultery? Are Christian countries killing gays (as a matter of national policy)? You are severely deluded if you think that Christians aren't more socially evolved. And I thought you were one of the more progressive people on this forum - and yet you defend the most regressive religion on the face of this earth :roll:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Bleatmop





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FascistLibertarian wrote:
Where did you get those? A real Quran? That you, I am sure, have bothered to read.


I just posted the plain English version of the verses I cited. You went and posted the other verses. I think this is helpful actually, because people can now directly compare what I wrote and you wrote.

For instance:

4:160 So, then, for the wickedness committed by those who followed the Jewish faith (For wrongdoing Jews,)did We deny unto them certain of the good things of life which [aforetime] had been allowed to them; [174] and [We did this] for their having so often turned away from the path of God, [175]

4:161 and [for] their taking usury although it had been forbidden to them, and their wrongful devouring of other people's possessions. And for those from among them who [continue to] deny the truth We have readied grievous suffering.( Allah has prepared a painful doom. ie. they are going to hell.)


Perhaps you are more enlightened to me and can tell me how this has been translated wrong? I mean, obviously you are so much more educated about Islam than I am as you didn't use, how did you put it? Oh ya, you didn't use "some hick website" and "copy what they said without checking it over" did you? You actually put some thought into what I said and what your response was, right?


Last edited by Bleatmop on Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
Craig
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bleatmop wrote:
Perhaps you are more enlightened to me and can tell me how this has been translated wrong? I mean, obviously you are so much more educated about Islam than I am as you didn't use, how did you put it? Oh ya, you didn't use "some hick website" and "copy what they said without checking it over" did you? You actually put some thought into what I said and what your response was, right?


It's fun smacking down arrogance isn't. Well done!!
gc





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JBG wrote:
They should not be facilitated in forming their own enclaves which are "no go" zones for police and mainstream Canadians.

Got some evidence that there are "no go" zones for police in Canada?
Quote:
Their "culture" should not be subsidized or encouraged.

I don't think this particular aspect of their culture has ever been encouraged. How does Canada encourage forcing women to wear a veil?
gc





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bleatmop wrote:
I thought I'd contribute to the conversation by adding some quotes from the Quran.

Quote:
Don't bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. (2:6)

Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years, but they are going to hell (2:96)

We should cast terror in the hearts of those who disbelieve. Their habitation is the Fire. (3:151)

For wrongdoing Jews, Allah has prepared a painful doom. (4:160-161)

Christians will be burned in the fire (5:72)

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.(But if they desist in their unbelief, don't kill them). 2:191-192


Clearly Islam is a peaceful, tolerant religion, and it is only the extremists that are causing trouble. More here.

How about some bible quotes?:
Quote:
If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in 13 that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, [a] both its people and its livestock. 16 Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt. 17 None of those condemned things [b] shall be found in your hands, so that the LORD will turn from his fierce anger; he will show you mercy, have compassion on you, and increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your forefathers, 18 because you obey the LORD your God, keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes.

Deuteronomy 13
Quote:
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over themóbring them here and kill them in front of me.

Luke 19:27
crazymamma





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
How does Canada encourage forcing women to wear a veil?



Please can you stop calling it a veil? By using that word you are white washing what it is. It really isn't a veil at all. A veil is a gauzy, light, see thru little number that covers a woman head just past her chin in the front,something like for a wedding or a funeral. What you are talking about is a burka, a sexless, non identifying, eraser of individuality and is an affront to most western women as it is seen as a sign of the oppression of women and male dominance/ownership.
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