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FascistLibertarian





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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It is unnatural to have two fathers or two mothers.


So you believe that only the nuclear family is 'natural'? There is no 'natural' state of society in regards to family. What about a family that is a man whose wife died, his son, and his brother? What about adoption?

Quote:
which will lead to nothing but bad things for that child.


any evidence to back up this oppinion?

Quote:
what will be the effects on these children with two fathers or two mothers?


Probably about the same as the children of hetrosexual parents.
Anyways if the kids end up screwed up its probably due to any number of factors, how does a parents sexual orientation change their ability to be a parent?
First Lady





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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kafer wrote:
Nope, sorry can't do that. Seeing as technically I have two fathers and two mothers, and neither of them are gay, they divorced and remarried when i was young, so in answer to your question, I see absolutely nothing wrong with this sentence.

Now if I were to actually hear the whole lyrics, which is the only way anyone should make a judgement against something, that might change my opinion of this sentence, but seeing as that is not an option, I will stick with what I have said. This sentence alone does not bother me.


I would have to agree. My daughter feels she has 3 "dads".
I was an unwed teen mom when I had her. Then I married a man who knew her since she was 3 months old. We were married close to 20 years. I divorced a number of years ago and recently remarried.

From my daughters perspective my first husband is the dad who raised her, when she turned 18 she tracked down her biological father and they are now very close.
She also has a great relationship with my new husband and considers him a step-dad, even though she is 25 years old.

Granted she dealt with most of this as an adult, but there are many kids going through things like this at a very young age.
gc





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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SFrank85 wrote:
It is not just a moral issue, it is about nature. It is unnatural to have two fathers or two mothers.

Not at all. In many cultures it is quite common for the extended family to help in raising the kids.
SFrank85





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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
SFrank85 wrote:
It is not just a moral issue, it is about nature. It is unnatural to have two fathers or two mothers.

Not at all. In many cultures it is quite common for the extended family to help in raising the kids.


Like aunts and uncles, grandparents. However growing up with two fathers or two mothers is unnatural. Since when can a man get another man pregnant, or a female a female pregnant?

We do see the problems within our society with children without a father figure in their life. Without a father figure and mother figure, it causes problems. Where is the proof that children with homosexual parents turn out normal? There is no proof since this is fairly recent.
FascistLibertarian





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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Where is the proof that children with homosexual parents turn out normal? There is no proof since this is fairly recent.


http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/policy/parents.html

Quote:
As the social visibility and legal status of lesbian and gay parents has increased, three major concerns about the influence of lesbian and gay parents on children have been often voiced (Falk, 1994; Patterson, Fulcher & Wainright, 2002). One is that the children of lesbian and gay parents will experience more difficulties in the area of sexual identity than children of heterosexual parents. For instance, one such concern is that children brought up by lesbian mothers or gay fathers will show disturbances in gender identity and/or in gender role behavior. A second category of concerns involves aspects of children's personal development other than sexual identity. For example, some observers have expressed fears that children in the custody of gay or lesbian parents would be more vulnerable to mental breakdown, would exhibit more adjustment difficulties and behavior problems, or would be less psychologically healthy than other children. A third category of concerns is that children of lesbian and gay parents will experience difficulty in social relationships. For example, some observers have expressed concern that children living with lesbian mothers or gay fathers will be stigmatized, teased, or otherwise victimized by peers. Another common fear is that children living with gay or lesbian parents will be more likely to be sexually abused by the parent or by the parent's friends or acquaintances.

Results of social science research have failed to confirm any of these concerns about children of lesbian and gay parents (Patterson, 2000, 2004a; Perrin, 2002; Tasker, 1999). Research suggests that sexual identities (including gender identity, gender-role behavior, and sexual orientation) develop in much the same ways among children of lesbian mothers as they do among children of heterosexual parents (Patterson, 2004a). Studies of other aspects of personal development (including personality, self-concept, and conduct) similarly reveal few differences between children of lesbian mothers and children of heterosexual parents (Perrin, 2002; Stacey & Biblarz, 2001; Tasker, 1999). However, few data regarding these concerns are available for children of gay fathers (Patterson, 2004b). Evidence also suggests that children of lesbian and gay parents have normal social relationships with peers and adults (Patterson, 2000, 2004a; Perrin, 2002; Stacey & Biblarz, 2001; Tasker, 1999; Tasker & Golombok, 1997). The picture that emerges from research is one of general engagement in social life with peers, parents, family members, and friends. Fears about children of lesbian or gay parents being sexually abused by adults, ostracized by peers, or isolated in single-sex lesbian or gay communities have received no scientific support. Overall, results of research suggest that the development, adjustment, and well-being of children with lesbian and gay parents do not differ markedly from that of children with heterosexual parents.
SFrank85





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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to use that as your proof, that association clearly has a bias. Plus the study is extremely short term, which does not take in the long term effects of same sex parents.
First Lady





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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SFrank85 wrote:
Like aunts and uncles, grandparents. However growing up with two fathers or two mothers is unnatural. Since when can a man get another man pregnant, or a female a female pregnant?


Biologically your statement is correct. With today's family dynamics though it is possible to have more than one mother or father figure in your life.

Quote:
We do see the problems within our society with children without a father figure in their life. Without a father figure and mother figure, it causes problems. Where is the proof that children with homosexual parents turn out normal? There is no proof since this is fairly recent.


"Normal" is a pretty vague word. Who determines what is normal. I think we can find lots of children who have not turned our "normal" who have both a father and a mother.
FascistLibertarian





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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If you want to use that as your proof, that association clearly has a bias. Plus the study is extremely short term, which does not take in the long term effects of same sex parents.


Psychological studies are created with bias?
Could you should some evidence from an unbiased source?
SFrank85





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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This group which funded the research is heavily funded by the gay and lesbian community, so of course it will have a bias.

If I used this source: http://www.zenit.org/article-11455?l=english, then of course it would also have a bias.
gc





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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SFrank85 wrote:
Like aunts and uncles, grandparents.

Exactly. In other words, it is quite common for someone other than the biological parents to play a parenting role.
Quote:
Where is the proof that children with homosexual parents turn out normal? There is no proof since this is fairly recent.

Where is the proof that children with heterosexual parents turn out better than children with homosexual parents? Particularly when the only other options are a single parent.
mrsocko





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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People who support teaching about gay lifestyles in public schools think being gay happens because of genetics. People who do not(like me) think that being gay is caused by the enviroment a person grows up in. These are generalizations I know.

I wish we could see if the % of the population that is gay has increased since the prevalence of gay media and teaching has increased.
Stephen





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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that "sexuality" isn't part of a 6 year-old's thinking regarding his/her parents no matter if his parents/guardians are a man and a woman, or two men...

"mom" and "dad" to a child has nothing to do with what his parents do in the bedroom.

I think that the school was recognizing that the situation may exist, but they weren't introducing children to sexuality.

In fact, when a teacher asks a child about his "dad", the teacher is not asking about the father's sexual activities.
Craig
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephen wrote:
I think that "sexuality" isn't part of a 6 year-old's thinking regarding his/her parents no matter if his parents/guardians are a man and a woman, or two men...

"mom" and "dad" to a child has nothing to do with what his parents do in the bedroom.

I think that the school was recognizing that the situation may exist, but they weren't introducing children to sexuality.

In fact, when a teacher asks a child about his "dad", the teacher is not asking about the father's sexual activities.


Not the point. It has nothing to do with SEX and everything to do with the normal nuclear family. Same sex relationships are not NORMAL. Teaching young kids that gay families are just another type of family is wrong - you might not agree and that's why I wrote the email not you.
Stephen





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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
Stephen wrote:
I think that "sexuality" isn't part of a 6 year-old's thinking regarding his/her parents no matter if his parents/guardians are a man and a woman, or two men...

"mom" and "dad" to a child has nothing to do with what his parents do in the bedroom.

I think that the school was recognizing that the situation may exist, but they weren't introducing children to sexuality.

In fact, when a teacher asks a child about his "dad", the teacher is not asking about the father's sexual activities.


Not the point. It has nothing to do with SEX and everything to do with the normal nuclear family. Same sex relationships are not NORMAL. Teaching young kids that gay families are just another type of family is wrong - you might not agree and that's why I wrote the email not you.


Of course, I respect your desire to raise your children with your sense of morality (which you of course believe is best for them), but views do differ on what is "moral" on this sense...

It gets difficult when we ask the powers that be to legislate or enforce the law based on morality because of differing views. I certainly wouldn't want to live in a state where one's view of morality differed vastly from my own. I'm sure that you wouldn't either if it was your morality that went against the grain.

So, what do we do in the end? Do we create a bubble around our children to protect them from conflicting moral viewpoints? Of course, I see your dilemma. But for you to ask the school to stop "moralizing" against what you see is best for your children, you are, in effect, imposing your view on the other children (the very type of action you hoped to prevent in the first place). Granted, you are asking the school to stop actively moralizing... and you are not asking them to promote your world view instead.

Another larger question is: in practical terms, do we have a common morality or even community standards of morality? What of the moral standards of the majority over those of the minority? Since morality is subjective, it should be taught by parents to their kids. And there, I agree with you: the school is actively setting morals which may be in conflict with your own, but as a parent it is your parental responsibility to play an active role in setting the moral standards for your children (and I don't doubt that you do this)

To summarize my own personal view however, I certainly have a view of what is right and wrong for my future kids. However, part of what I think is moral is not imposing my personal view (via the powers that be) on others because I think that one's morality is a personal characteristic and not a standard by which everyone else may follow. And by the very nature of your complaint, I am quite certain that you'd agree with me.
gc





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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
People who support teaching about gay lifestyles in public schools think being gay happens because of genetics. People who do not(like me) think that being gay is caused by the enviroment a person grows up in.

Do you think heterosexuality is due to genetics, or simply environment??
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