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Craig
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
So, where did you get the 35% figure for passive support?


As I already stated when I presented the numbers - it was an ESTIMATE. Where did you get your numbers?
Craig
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
Ok, so we can't prove whether someone is passively supporting al qaeda or the kkk, does that mean we should judge white people unfavourably because they might be passively supporting the kkk and we can't prove that they aren't?


I'm not judging the people. I'm judging the religion. I've made that statement two times already. Please read the original post in this thread.
Craig
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It blows my mind how a liberal like yourself can act as a cheerleader for a religion that spits in the face of everything that you so-called progressives stand for. Your hatred of Christians and conservatives is so great that you are willing to prostitute yourselves for the votes of the most regressive people on the planet.
gc





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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
As I already stated when I presented the numbers - it was an ESTIMATE. Where did you get your numbers?


You also stated that you had polls to back up your numbers. If you are willing to admit that your numbers were a complete guess, that's fine. I admit that mine were a guess as well.
gc





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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
I'm not judging the people. I'm judging the religion. I've made that statement two times already. Please read the original post in this thread.

I see, you don't hate Muslim people, you hate their religion. Does that mean you don't hate white people, but you hate their race?
gc





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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
It blows my mind how a liberal like yourself can act as a cheerleader for a religion that spits in the face of everything that you so-called progressives stand for.

Is this supposed to be directed at me? I'm not standing up for the radicals, I'm not standing up for anyone who would treat women as second-class citizens. I am standing up for the majority of Muslims who I believe are just as progressive as anyone else.
Quote:
Your hatred of Christians and conservatives...

If you are going to keep making statements like these, please back up them. I have asked you before to do so. I do not hate Christians or conservatives.
Quote:
is so great that you are willing to prostitute yourselves for the votes of the most regressive people on the planet.

Prostitute myself for votes? I didn't even know I was running for office :lol:
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
Craig wrote:
gc wrote:
Do you agree that radical Muslims and moderate Muslims have different (religious) beliefs?


The five degress of Islam...

1. Active radicals (most dangerous)
2. Passive radicals
3. Indifferent
4. Passive opponents
5. Active opponents (Hirsi Ali is one of few)

In percentage terms (my estimates)...

1. 5%
2. 35%
3. 35%
4. 24%
5. 1%

And I've provided polls that back up my assertions.

I disagree with "passive radicals". Just because someone is not speaking out against terrorism does not make them a radical.
I would say the breakdown is more like this:
1. Radicals: 5%
2. Muslims who would rather not get involved in the conflict: 45%
3. Muslims who actively oppose the radicals: 50%

2 & 3 are estimates.
Again, you are simply making things up. Objective reality does not support your position. If a Catholic does something, and claims to be representing all Catholics, the Pope speaks up. If a Muslim murders someone, and claims to be representing all Muslims, Islamic leaders from around the world speak up; but not to condemn the individual, to support him, to justify the action, to blame America. I really do not understand how you live in the same world as me, yet your view of reality seems so skewed.

If your neighbor killed a police officer, and then claimed that all the people on your street supported his actions, would it not be appropriate for you to speak up? Everyday, acts of violence are committed by Muslims who claim to be fighting for all Muslims everywhere, and the silence is deafening.
gc





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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
Again, you are simply making things up. Objective reality does not support your position.

Hey, I said it was a guess...but if you have any evidence to the contrary, feel free to post it.
Quote:
If a Catholic does something, and claims to be representing all Catholics, the Pope speaks up. If a Muslim murders someone, and claims to be representing all Muslims, Islamic leaders from around the world speak up; but not to condemn the individual, to support him, to justify the action, to blame America.

I provided a link where Muslims leaders are speaking out to condemn terrorism. It's one thing to be unaware that Muslims are condemning terrorism, and another to willfully ignore the evidence that is presented to you.
Quote:
I really do not understand how you live in the same world as me, yet your view of reality seems so skewed.

I don't understand how you live in the same world as me and not understand that there are moderate Muslims who do not deserved to be lumped in with the radicals. These people are our neighbors, our friends, the people we work with...do you really think they all want us dead?
Quote:
If your neighbor killed a police officer, and then claimed that all the people on your street supported his actions, would it not be appropriate for you to speak up? Everyday, acts of violence are committed by Muslims who claim to be fighting for all Muslims everywhere, and the silence is deafening.

If my neighbor killed a police officer and then claimed to be acting on behalf of all white people, would you expect every white person to speak up and condemn the man? Or would you simply dismiss him as a raving lunatic? Can you also provide a link to suggest that terrorists are speaking on behalf of all Muslims? Because I see radical Muslims targeting moderates as well. It's hard to imagine a radical Muslim acting on behalf of the person they are blowing up...
Craig
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the Pope called for the death of Jews can you imagine the outrage that would come from the left (not to mention the entire world). Muslim leaders do it DAILY and the left comes to their defense (and even invites them to speak at their Liberal Arts colleges). Blows my mind.
Craig
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
I don't understand how you live in the same world as me and not understand that there are moderate Muslims who do not deserved to be lumped in with the radicals. These people are our neighbors, our friends, the people we work with...do you really think they all want us dead?


The fact that there are moderate Muslims does not mean that the religion that they follow isn't violent and oppressive to women and minorities (not to mention anyone who doesn't subscribe to it wholeheartedly). Moderate Muslims are decent people - Islam on the other hand...
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"women are uncovered meat", what was the reaction from Australian Muslims? There was a minority that did not like it, and that man is still the highest ranking Muslim down under. I could go on, but as you said, willful ignorance and all.

PS. Correction, he made the uncovered meat sermon in 2006, and stayed Mufti of Australia until June 2007.
"
Taj El-Din Hilaly, an Imam of the Lakemba Mosque in Sydney, the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils appointed him Mufti of Australia in 1988.

1988 speech regarding Jews
"The Jews' struggle with humanity is as old as history itself; the present continuing struggle with the Islam nation is a natural continuation of the Jews' enmity towards the human race as a whole. Judaism controls the world by…secret movements as the destructive doctrines and groups, such as communism, libertarianism, Free Masons, Baha’ism, the Rotary clubs, the nationalistic and racist doctrines. The Jews try to control the world through sex, then sexual perversion, then the promotion of espionage, treason, and economic hoarding."

February 2004 sermon
Sons of Islam, there is a war of infidels taking place everywhere. The true man is the boy who opposes Israeli tanks with strength and faith. The boy who, despite his mother's objections, goes out to war to become a martyr like his elder brother. The boy who tells his mother: 'Oh mother, don't cry for me if I die. Oh mother, Jihad has been imposed on me and I want to become a martyr'."

September 11 is God's work against oppressors. Some of the things that happen in the world cannot be explained; a civilian airplane whose secrets cannot be explained if we ask its pilot who reached his objective without error, who led your steps? Or if we ask the giant that fell, who humiliated you? Or if we ask the President, who made you cry? God is the answer."

October 2006 sermon
“ If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat? The uncovered meat is the problem. If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred." ”

He was the honorary head of the Muslim faith in Australia for close to a decade, and he was making these kinds of statements. I wonder how easy it would be to find a similar Canadian example?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taj_El-Din_Hilaly


Last edited by kwlafayette on Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:48 am; edited 2 times in total
FascistLibertarian





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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You seem to believe GC is saying that Christians are bad and Muslims are good or something.
The point is people and religions are grey and people should be judged for who they are not what religion they belong to.

Quote:
He doesn't know the Bible - he just did a Google search.


And you clearly have read the Koran back to front.

Quote:
Tell you what GC, you spend five years in the heart of Christian country (say Georgia) and then spend five years in the heart of Muslim country (say north western Pakistan) and we'll see where a non-believer such as yourself fares better.

Such a fair comparison on so many levels. ;)
Why not 5 years in UAE vs 5 years in Keyna?

Quote:
The fact that there are moderate Muslims does not mean that the religion that they follow isn't violent and oppressive to women and minorities (not to mention anyone who doesn't subscribe to it wholeheartedly). Moderate Muslims are decent people - Islam on the other hand...


Islamism is bad, Islam is fine.
I feel the same way about political christianity of course, in terms of radicals no one is denying that Muslism radicals are (for a number of reasons) clearly the group most actively hostile to the West.

People that think of women as "uncovered meat" are jackasses regardless of religion or irreligion (although guys always have pure thoughs about women;))
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/010268.html

Quote:
Ehsan Jami is an intelligent, softly-spoken 22 year-old council member for the Dutch Labour Party. He believes there should be no compromise, ever, on the rights of women and gay people and novelists and cartoonists. He became sick of hearing self-appointed Islamist organisations claiming to speak for him when they called for the banning of books and the “right” to abuse women. So he set up the Dutch Council of Ex-Muslims. Their manifesto called for secularism – and the end to the polite toleration of Islamist intolerance. As he put it: “We want people to be free to choose who they want to be and what they want to believe in.”

Ehsan was immediately threatened with death. He was kicked to the ground outside the supermarket. He was grabbed in a street with a knife put to his throat. He can’t afford to be glib about the risk: he remembers the daylight decapitation of Theo Van Gough on the streets of Amsterdam. Yet instead of rallying to Ehsan, his party condemned him. The Dutch Vice-Prime Minister Wouter Bos said they disapproved of an organisation that “offends Muslims and their faith”.


Seems to me that we might be mixed up about who the majority is, and who the minority is; who is the moderate and who is the radical. If moderate is defined as holding the same views as the majority, then Ehsan Jami and Hirsi Ali just might be radicals, and the people who threaten them the moderates. It is a possibility that must be considered.
gc





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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FascistLibertarian wrote:
The point is people and religions are grey and people should be judged for who they are not what religion they belong to.

Precisely!! Thank you!
gc





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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
If the Pope called for the death of Jews can you imagine the outrage that would come from the left (not to mention the entire world). Muslim leaders do it DAILY and the left comes to their defense (and even invites them to speak at their Liberal Arts colleges). Blows my mind.

Absolutely there would be outrage, but the outrage would be directed at the pope who made the comments, not the billion Catholics who had absolutely nothing to do with the comment.

Again, I don't understand why you think "the left" is coming to the defense of the radicals. No one is defending the radicals, I am defending the moderates.
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