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Stephen





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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:59 pm    Post subject: What does "Red Tory" mean to you? Reply with quote

I think that Red Toryism is generally misattributed to those that are permissive on social issues such as same-sex marriage and abortion.

I think that the real tradition of red toryism has more to do with patronage as a legitimate political tool (senate appointments), and a sense of political elitism rather than populism.

I also get the sense that Red Toryism is more about the pragmatic than the ideological.
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liberal, in a nutshell. To me, the red Tory leaders I have seen, and the red Tories I have talked too would be happy within the Liberal party save for one thing; they stand for some things, and the Liberal party stands for nothing on a permanent basis.
mrsocko





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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always thought it was someone right of centre fiscally and left of centre socially. Basically Paul Martin.
FascistLibertarian





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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I also get the sense that Red Toryism is more about the pragmatic than the ideological.


Not to be cynical but these days what party isnt
gc





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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
I always thought it was someone right of centre fiscally and left of centre socially. Basically Paul Martin.


That's what I thought too. That would describe me pretty well.
Riley W





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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
mrsocko wrote:
I always thought it was someone right of centre fiscally and left of centre socially. Basically Paul Martin.


That's what I thought too. That would describe me pretty well.


So you generally a Liberal, but think Stephane is too far left?
FF_Canuck





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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think that the real tradition of red toryism has more to do with patronage as a legitimate political tool (senate appointments), and a sense of political elitism rather than populism.

I also get the sense that Red Toryism is more about the pragmatic than the ideological.


They also tend towards a government solution for all or most problems, IMO. They talk about being fiscally conservative, while at the same time advocating for increased spending, and they haven't seen a national program they don't like. To be honest, I think the only difference between Red Tories and Liberals is integrity.
Bleatmop





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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I first started getting into the Dogma of what is Canadian politics, I thought Red Tory meant fiscally conservative and socially permissive. But I think FF_Canuck's description above is probably more accurate. I now think they are only fiscally conservative when placed side by side with a DP'er.
gc





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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

westmanguy wrote:
So you generally a Liberal, but think Stephane is too far left?


I haven't heard enough about his fiscal policies to judge for sure, but we'll see when the platform comes out. Everyone keeps saying that Dion is very far left for the Liberal party, but then I hear Dion talking about large tax cuts. I think he is liberal on social issues, but on fiscal issues he doesn't seem as liberal as others would make him out to be. Granted, I disagree with him on some issues, but if he stays somewhat conservative on fiscal issues he sounds good to me.
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a bit more than the Liberals are too far left. Take Joe Clark for example. He had some things that he believed in, and they were important enough to him that he burned all bridges to the new CPC, and endorsed the Liberals. He stood on principle, even though he was completely wrong. A Liberal would have simply said the right things publicly, and started planning their leadership bid in secret.
TorontoCon





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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about PURPLE TORIES?

Somewhere between Red and Blue?

From reading these posts, I think that there's definitely a "grey area" between red and blue tory'ism (or shall I say purple...)
Mac





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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do we need sub-classification or sub-compartmentalization? Methinks such activity inspires divisiveness.

-Mac
hamiltonguyo





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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately Red Toryism has had such a definition shift that it doesn't mean much.

Traditionally Red Toryism was based on the belief that the rich were morally obligated to help maintain a decent standard of human dignity.

To a TRUE Red Tory Social Programs should only exist if they help those who are willing to help themselves.

In traditional red toryism the government is only involved as much as necessary to protect individuals and to provide this basic standard of dignitiy.
Stephen





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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the real answer may lie deep in some academic history texts of the evolution of party politics in the UK.

But, as mentioned, the definitions get changed over time.
Triple_R





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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I can see, a Red Tory is a person who believes in moderate fiscal conservatism but big pro-establishment government and social liberalism.

Left-leaning stands on issues like abortion, and SSM, are common for them (probably even a prerequisite), but they are also pro-oligarchy/elites. This is why they dislike the idea of Senate Reform, and talk so much about "defending Canadian institutions". They are firmly in love with the current and traditional style of Canadian governance, politics, federal-provincial relations, and type of Parliamentary/Westminister system, that is part of our Canadian dynamic, and partly inherited from Great Britian.

This is where the term "Tory" comes from, more than anything. The term "Tory" actually has an unique meaning amongst monarchists that goes beyond party identification, or left/right dichotomies. It means a firm belief in Queen/King and country, and the way things are done procedurally and stylystically.

This is one of the main reasons why a change away from our first past the post electoral system keeps getting voted down everywhere in Canada - it's not just conservatives stopping it; it's also these red tories who like the status quo style and mode of elections and governance in Canada.

Red Tories will support Tory parties as long as they don't drift any farther to the right than, say, where Belinda Stronach or Michael Ignatieff or Danny Williams are. If they percieve a Tory party as being more right-leaning, overall (and/or in their leadership), than those three, they will support Liberal parties.

I also find these folks to be incredibly passionate, and it's strange how quick and fervently they will turn on a Conservative party if they're even just slightly to the right of this Stronach/Ignatieff line.

I know one blogger on-line who is a supporter of John Tory, but is very harsh in his words against Stephen Harper and is a supporter of Stephane Dion.

In my view, John Tory is closer on a political axis to Stephen Harper than he is to Stephane Dion, but red tories seem to be more willing to drift a bit to the left from where they're most comfortable than to drift a bit to the right from where they're most comfortable.

They completely refuse to tolerate the slightest right-leaning movement beyond the Ignatieff/Stronach/Williams line, and would rather support someone as left-wing as, say, Sheila Copps, before supporting a moderate, slightly right of center, conservative like our current Prime Minister.
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