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Riley W





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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:55 pm    Post subject: Secularism Reply with quote

I believe secularism has been almost a preferential treatment of atheism/agnostics.

I believe that secularism is treating all faiths or lack of equal in the public square.

See in Winnipeg they can no longer distribute Gideon Bibles to Grade 5 students.

Even with an opt out form.

BUT, this same procedure is allowed for condom distribution at school.

The Supreme Court ruled that distributing Bibles at public school was NOT against the Charter.

Thoughts?
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Secularism is one of the forces that helped make the West great. These days, people have changed the meaning, they are taking it to extremes. You used to be able to be religious, and still a secularist, now it looks like secularism/humanism is going to be responsible for taking the West down. Separation of church and state has become publicly ridicule those of faith.

Quote:
Secularism is generally the assertion that certain practices or institutions should exist separately from religion or religious belief. Alternatively, it is a principle of promoting secular ideas or values in either public or private settings. It may also be a synonym for "secularist movement". In the extreme, it is an ideology that holds that religion has no place in public life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism

I agree with the first part, certain institutions should exist apart from the church. It is the last part that burns the bridges that the West crossed in its path to greatness.
Zak





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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Secularism Reply with quote

Secularism still is all about treating all faiths or no faith equally in the public sphere. This means no Bibles in public schools since education is funded by taxpayers.

While I somewhat agree that secularism is now being used as a synonym for no religion, I still encourage the classic definition that has been used for generations 'to make the West great' and it is unfortunate that the term has been warped by some atheists and hijaked by religious extremists in order to brainwash theists into thinking there is some global conquest by atheists to destroy religion (there isn't).

We should all remember that secularism goes both ways. Religion has to be removed from the public sphere if people want to be able to practice their faith freely.
Riley W





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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Secularism has come to the point though where it ridicules religion and favours atheism/agnostics.

Religion/beliefs/lack of beliefs should be equal in the public square, *BUT* no church, CHURCH, tied to the government institutions.

Meaning in a secular society, Christians should be able to put up a manger on city hall, but then Jews can put up the Star of David too.

Its about not showing preferential treatment to one belief (or lack of)/

Its gone to the extreme where the government has sponsored atheism as its stance.

My school board still does this (well I am in a 85% White Christian rural area) and the process worked as:

The Gideon Association pays for the Bibles, sends a letter home through the school, where parents have the option of opting out for their child to receive a Gideon New Testament Bible.

Then they would then come to school and give it too the kids who had the parents approve it off.

The same friggin process happens with condom distribution and sex ed.

Other religions are free to do the same as Gideon.

Thats secularism. All beliefs are treated EQUAL in the public square, and the government institutions do not associate themselves with 1 belief or church.

What has happened?

Secularism used to be great in the foundation of North America, it allowed prosecuted Protestants to escape the government sponsored Catholic Church in Europe.

Now look how far its been warped.
Zak





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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

westmanguy wrote:
Secularism has come to the point though where it ridicules religion and favours atheism/agnostics.

Its gone to the extreme where the government has sponsored atheism as its stance.
.


With the Christian god in our national anthem and Charter, the Anglican pope as our head of state, and the continuous funding of Catholic religious schools across some provinces, I fail to see how you can justify that the government sponsors atheism.

If students or their parents want to read a Bible, then they can go to church, the library, the internet etc, and get it themselves. When you use public education to advance your religion by passing out Bibles, then it is not secularism in any of its forms or definitions.

Thiests need to understand that not promoting religion is different than promoting atheism. Secularism is about separating religion so that people can worship whatever they choose on their own without the government getting involved. We already have too much government involvment in people's daily lives, it's best they stay out of religion as well.
gc





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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

westmanguy wrote:
Secularism has come to the point though where it ridicules religion and favours atheism/agnostics.


How does it ridicule religion or favour atheism?

Quote:
Meaning in a secular society, Christians should be able to put up a manger on city hall, but then Jews can put up the Star of David too.


Sure, as long as I can put up a sign that says "God does not exist", and as long as a Satan worshipper can put up a sign saying "Satan rules".

Quote:
Its gone to the extreme where the government has sponsored atheism as its stance.


How so?

Quote:
The Gideon Association pays for the Bibles, sends a letter home through the school, where parents have the option of opting out for their child to receive a Gideon New Testament Bible.

Then they would then come to school and give it too the kids who had the parents approve it off.

The same friggin process happens with condom distribution and sex ed.

Other religions are free to do the same as Gideon.


I'm fine with that, as long as the only kids who are receiving a bible are the parents who specifically sent a letter back requesting a bible. No response would mean no bible. The way you are describing it sounds as if the parents have to specifically ask for their child not to receive a bible. I don't agree with that.
mrsocko





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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You used to be able to be religious, and still a secularist, now it looks like secularism/humanism is going to be responsible for taking the West down. Separation of church and state has become publicly ridicule those of faith.


We don't have the separation of church and state in Canada's Constitution, so this change in the way Religious people are treated is not supported by law, in Canada at least. The attitude of some non-religious people has much to do with the the fact that religious people have been marginalized. The militant few will do anything they can to force people who take their religion seriously out of the public square and into the Church or Mosque where they feel they belong. When a polititian is outed as a bible believing Christian or mentions God in public they feel it their right and duty to react in hateful terms to him/her.

I remember watching Stock Day in his first Debate as Canadian Alliance leader. Alexa McDonough(NDP leader) called him a religious scumbag (or something similar) when the issue of abortion came up. I couldn't believe it and nothing was said in the media or by the moderator. Stephen Harper was portayed as a scary Christian right nut job by the Liberals in both elections he fought.

Why has this attitude become prevalent in Canada. The Quiet revolution in Quebec had a lot to do with it. It caused the Cathlolic churches influence to decline greatly in Quebec. As polititans in English Canada saw the Church in Quebec become impotent to influence social policy there they also where less influenced by it. Polititians became like Paul Martin. Say you believe in God and then bring in laws that are against the will of God. (ex. same sex marriage). Suddenly it helped you get elected to pay lip service to religion then prove you didn't take it seriously.

The decline of the Right steepend the decline of religious influence. The CPC(in it's various forms) had been the home of protestant Christian over the years and with it's decline in the 90's these people lost an avenue to respectfully disagree(see the abortion debate of Mulroney's time) with the secularization of Canadian society. The New constitution didn't help either with the Supreme Court being empowered by the Charter of rights and Freedoms to strike down religious laws(Sunday shopping)

I think with the new CPC and the return of a vibrant conservative movement in Quebec(ADQ) there will be a marked improvement in the respect alloted the religious. You may have seen the pendulum go to far to the left for a while but I think it will be balanced out as the left starts to decline.

Right now you can see the left screaming in the media as they get marginalized. Hopefully the media will become more centred as the political spectrum moves right.
Zak





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:

We don't have the separation of church and state in Canada's Constitution, so this change in the way Religious people are treated is not supported by law, in Canada at least. The attitude of some non-religious people has much to do with the the fact that religious people have been marginalized. The militant few will do anything they can to force people who take their religion seriously out of the public square and into the Church or Mosque where they feel they belong. When a polititian is outed as a bible believing Christian or mentions God in public they feel it their right and duty to react in hateful terms to him/her.


Religious people haven't been marginalized. They are simply up against competition for the first time our history so rather than debate their opponents, they play the victim card in order to garnish some sympathy. Unfortunate.

Taking religion out of the public sphere does not necessarily involve politicians leaving their faith at the door. In a secular society, politicians can believe what ever they want as long as they aren't using public resources to promote any faith.

As any conservative from Ontario will tell you: Leave religion out of politics or you will lose the election, so I caution against people who want the CPC to return to its religious roots since that will only split up the party and ensure Liberal dominance for another generation
FascistLibertarian





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I believe that secularism is treating all faiths or lack of equal in the public square.


nah you cant treat em all equal or I would have created my own religion and be on holiday right now.
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cults fall into a different category than religions....
Zak





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
Cults fall into a different category than religions....


No they don't. Religions just have more members.
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And here is a perfect example of the difference between modern secularism, and classical secularism.

PS. The implication: all religions are cults. What do you do with a member of a cult? Why, you deprogram them of course, you "rescue" them from the cult. Anyone who still thinks that religion, and Christianity in particular, is not under attack in this country? If the post above does not convince you, you are on the side doing the attacking.
Zak





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
And here is a perfect example of the difference between modern secularism, and classical secularism.


How so? You are free to join any religion just like you are free to join any cult.

Classical secularism just states that the government doesn't get involved. That's all I support. I support people's choices whatever they are and I will never support governments getting involved in religious affairs. I just ask that religions not be funded by the government as well.
gc





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
PS. The implication: all religions are cults. What do you do with a member of a cult? Why, you deprogram them of course, you "rescue" them from the cult.


Why would you do that? Shouldn't people have the right to choose what the believe in??
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
kwlafayette wrote:
PS. The implication: all religions are cults. What do you do with a member of a cult? Why, you deprogram them of course, you "rescue" them from the cult.


Why would you do that? Shouldn't people have the right to choose what the believe in??

Cults brainwash people, they prey upon people who either don't know, or are unable to defend themselves, cults actively prevent people from leaving. Cults confiscate your personal property; cults are dangerous.

Jonestown
Solar Temple
Branch Davidians
Scientology

If you can't see the difference between Jonestown and the Catholic Church, well, again, you are on the side that is attacking faith in our modern society.
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