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theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

don muntean wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
Craig wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
If you go on the assumption that God does not exist


There is a difference between assuming he doesn't exist and arguing vociferously that he doesn't exist.

I don't argue he doesn't exist, I argue that there is absolutely no evidence he exists.



You saw my CT scan posted on this thread? That is objective proof of God.

No, no, no. Subjective proof of God.
don muntean





Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 2262
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Location: Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
don muntean wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
Craig wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
If you go on the assumption that God does not exist


There is a difference between assuming he doesn't exist and arguing vociferously that he doesn't exist.

I don't argue he doesn't exist, I argue that there is absolutely no evidence he exists.



You saw my CT scan posted on this thread? That is objective proof of God.

No, no, no. Subjective proof of God.


No the CT scan is objective - what more do you need? There is evidence of what looks to have been critical head injuries - I don't know when they happened nor do I know how they were healed....a miracle - how otherwise?
Triple_R





Joined: 20 Sep 2007
Posts: 111
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votes: 2

PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

don muntean wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
don muntean wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
Craig wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
If you go on the assumption that God does not exist


There is a difference between assuming he doesn't exist and arguing vociferously that he doesn't exist.

I don't argue he doesn't exist, I argue that there is absolutely no evidence he exists.



You saw my CT scan posted on this thread? That is objective proof of God.

No, no, no. Subjective proof of God.


No the CT scan is objective - what more do you need? There is evidence of what looks to have been critical head injuries - I don't know when they happened nor do I know how they were healed....a miracle - how otherwise?


Have you not read AJ's posts on this site?

He is intolerant of religion, and frequently insults Christians in strong terms.

I don't know why people waste their time trying to persuade a person who clearly hates and disrespects and spits on everything that they believe in.

The likelihood of one persuading AJ to even be open-minded towards Christianity or religion in general (let alone actually becoming a Christian or theist) is less than that of persuading Karl Marx (if he was still alive today) that capitalism is superior to communism.
Craig
Site Admin




Joined: 29 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Few groups proselytize more than atheists. They can't "not believe" quietly to themselves. It should be tenet of their non-religion to mock others because they don't seem content to simply hold their views.
Triple_R





Joined: 20 Sep 2007
Posts: 111
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
Few groups proselytize more than atheists. They can't "not believe" quietly to themselves. It should be tenet of their non-religion to mock others because they don't seem content to simply hold their views.


I absolutely agree.

I daresay that as a percentage of their total numbers, that atheists proselytize way more than Christians do (which is, in a strange way, a condemnation of both atheists and Christians).
don muntean





Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 2262
Reputation: 34.9Reputation: 34.9Reputation: 34.9
votes: 8
Location: Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Triple_R wrote:
don muntean wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
don muntean wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
Craig wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
If you go on the assumption that God does not exist


There is a difference between assuming he doesn't exist and arguing vociferously that he doesn't exist.

I don't argue he doesn't exist, I argue that there is absolutely no evidence he exists.



You saw my CT scan posted on this thread? That is objective proof of God.

No, no, no. Subjective proof of God.


No the CT scan is objective - what more do you need? There is evidence of what looks to have been critical head injuries - I don't know when they happened nor do I know how they were healed....a miracle - how otherwise?


Have you not read AJ's posts on this site?

He is intolerant of religion, and frequently insults Christians in strong terms.

I don't know why people waste their time trying to persuade a person who clearly hates and disrespects and spits on everything that they believe in.

The likelihood of one persuading AJ to even be open-minded towards Christianity or religion in general (let alone actually becoming a Christian or theist) is less than that of persuading Karl Marx (if he was still alive today) that capitalism is superior to communism.


I sense that AJ's aversions are rooted in an anger towards God [on the surface it's for the many disparities that exist] I think that in AJ's personal life there is a longstanding sense of having been let down by God and that has helped create an enmity - AJ isn't the first to have this experience - I hope that AJ one day sees this possibility...
Zak





Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 44
Reputation: 16.4Reputation: 16.4
votes: 1
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Triple_R wrote:
Craig wrote:
Few groups proselytize more than atheists. They can't "not believe" quietly to themselves. It should be tenet of their non-religion to mock others because they don't seem content to simply hold their views.


I absolutely agree.

I daresay that as a percentage of their total numbers, that atheists proselytize way more than Christians do (which is, in a strange way, a condemnation of both atheists and Christians).


With the new atheist trend it does seem that way and yet how do you know someone is an atheist? Really, the only time you can tell is when they are arguing against religion. At any other moment they blend right into society since they are part of virtually every race, income bracket, geographic location, political affiliation, etc. Christians, on the other hand, go to church, display their crosses on their walls, etc and so are easily identifiable without asking questions. Most atheists, like most Christians, mind their own business and get along with each other just fine so I wouldn't classify any ideology as being more proselytizing than the other.

The other thing theists need to realize is that there is a difference between criticizing and proselytizing. In this day and age, freedom of speech and the individual should allow people to express their beliefs, whatever they may be and yet when an atheist makes a small critique on God, Jesus, or the Bible, theists assume that it is an mocking attack on their cherished beliefs when a more intelligent debate would be more useful. Most atheist 'proselytizing' is simply criticism in need of intelligent responses towards a healthy debate and shouldn't be interpreted as intolerant or offensive.

Theists need to realize that there are many critiques of religion that need to be addressed and that voicing these criticisms should be acceptable. Atheists need to stop being so $%&*! cocky and rude before theists will start answering their questions.

P.S. ending on a nice note, I find the theists vs atheist debates here at BT to be the best on the net since both sides use facts in their arguments (perhaps the absence of socialists on both sides is to blame
:) )
Zak





Joined: 09 Dec 2006
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votes: 1
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

don muntean wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
don muntean wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
Craig wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
If you go on the assumption that God does not exist


There is a difference between assuming he doesn't exist and arguing vociferously that he doesn't exist.

I don't argue he doesn't exist, I argue that there is absolutely no evidence he exists.



You saw my CT scan posted on this thread? That is objective proof of God.

No, no, no. Subjective proof of God.


No the CT scan is objective - what more do you need? There is evidence of what looks to have been critical head injuries - I don't know when they happened nor do I know how they were healed....a miracle - how otherwise?


If it's your CT scan then it is not objective proof. Objectivity is defined by independent observation and analysis. If the doctors who look at it declare it to be a miracle, then that would be different. Remember, the body can heal just about anything on its own in the right conditions.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sense that AJ's aversions are rooted in an anger towards God [on the surface it's for the many disparities that exist] I think that in AJ's personal life there is a longstanding sense of having been let down by God and that has helped create an enmity - AJ isn't the first to have this experience - I hope that AJ one day sees this possibility...
_________________
************************************************
This is amateur psychology, and it is totally wrong.
I don't hate God, I simply don't believe in God, and I simply don't see any evidence whatsoever that God exists.
And I used to believe in a secular way, but I asked questions, and the more I asked, the less likely there was any need for a God to have ever to have existed.
No sense of God letting me down. That is not the case at all. I wish there was a God, but I know better.
As far as organized religion goes, I find it comparable to children lining up at a Mall to see Santa.
As far as the roots of Judaism and Christianity go for example,there is no contemporary evidence for a historical Jesus or a historical Exodus.

I am as intolerant of some religious people when preaching gay acts are sinful, as those people are disrespectful and intolerant of gays.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
Few groups proselytize more than atheists. They can't "not believe" quietly to themselves. It should be tenet of their non-religion to mock others because they don't seem content to simply hold their views.

I could care less if you or anyone else here called yourself an atheist. I'm not after your soul.
As Zak says, I'm being critical of religious beliefs and their foundations.
Craig
Site Admin




Joined: 29 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
I'm being critical of religious beliefs and their foundations.


I'm still looking for an atheist that is respectful towards religious people. I don't understand why the disdain. It is as if atheism is defined by all the things that are wrong with religion and if you don't point it out on a constant basis then you feel empty.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
I'm being critical of religious beliefs and their foundations.


I'm still looking for an atheist that is respectful towards religious people. I don't understand why the disdain. It is as if atheism is defined by all the things that are wrong with religion and if you don't point it out on a constant basis then you feel empty.

I have already said that I like the direction the Pope is going when it comes to science.
Most religions are full of intolerance (anti-gay, anti-others who are not of the same religion) and that give me a green light to respond to them in a not so nice way.

I don't revolve my life around atheism. The forums here dedicated to religion or when the topic is religion is when I decide to put my two sense in.
Most of my friends believe in God, but we don't discuss beliefs usually.
I have another blog dedicated to going after Jew haters:
http://www.judeophobewatch.blogspot.com/
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 2463
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votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about this for real world verifible evidence of a miracle.


During the Toronto Revival our Vineyard church was having alot of evening services. I was at this service but left about a half hour before these events happened.
A vietnamese lady came to our church, was prayed for in Jesus name and spit up cancer.

She had had a pain behind her nose and couldn't sleep laying down for months. That very day she had been diagnosed. Her docotor didn't speak vietnamese and her husband hadn't even told her she had cancer was sobbing to our pastor that he didn't know how to tell her about the cancer while this miracle happened . The piece of cancer was taken to a doctor and was verified to be cancer. That night she slept lying down for the first time in months. The cancer was not totally gone.

A few night after this a number of people were awakened at the same time of night in the early morning and thought they heard God tell them to start praying for her.. A friend of theirs called the lady and her husband at the same time and said that he needed to pray for her. As he prayed the lady heard a riping sound come from behind her nose and then a lump form in her throat which she swallowed. The cancer was gone now.

The husband put the cancer she spit up in a small box and showed it to people for a while(I saw it). Last I heard he kept it in his fridge.(6 years ago now)
This miracle is written about in the book Catch the Fire(or it's sequel can't remember which). If any one wants verification of this miracle I can put you in touch with our pastor. He can connect you to the people involved.
Zak





Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 44
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votes: 1
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:

I'm still looking for an atheist that is respectful towards religious people. I don't understand why the disdain. It is as if atheism is defined by all the things that are wrong with religion and if you don't point it out on a constant basis then you feel empty.


Atheism is not defined by things that are wrong with religion (there is another thread discussing this). It's just a belief in the non-existance of any supreme being. I can talk about atheism for hours without even mentioning religion.

I like to think it's possible to respect people's right to believe even if I don't respect the belief itself and I have lots of respect for religious people, as I do everyone else. People should be encouraged to believe what they want, disuss these beliefs together, and live peacefully together. Getting back on topic, if people were to recognize these differences and learn to live together that would be a miracle I'd accept.
Zak





Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 44
Reputation: 16.4Reputation: 16.4
votes: 1
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
How about this for real world verifible evidence of a miracle.....



The wall of flesh behind the nose is thin so any hard piece of matter (like a cancerous growth) can easily rip through when you apply enough force. Until the likely causes of rare events are eliminated, we should remain sceptical. (nice story though, it would be interesting to know what really happened)

Most medical miracles are simply good luck happening to devout people who are grasping at straws for proof of their beliefs and, in the process, will eliminate more rational explanations for the events.
For example: You have a headache. You take an aspirin and then go pray to end the headache The headache stops. Since you were praying, you assume that the praying was the cause of your relief and thank God for his help.
While this example might seem overly-simplistic, it is really no different than every miracle that has happened. People ignore the more likely causes of miracles because it makes them feel better.
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