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Craig
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
I was a little disappointed, but the speech does say that there will be a fiscal update in the fall where we will learn of the extra tax cuts.


He is playing Dion like a fiddle. He will put forth the more moderate aspects initially (just as this speech was) and Dion will vote for everything in order to prevent an election. This will make Harper look more and more moderate because even the socialist Dion supports him. And then he will offer a huge tax cut that is too much for the Liberals and boom we have an election.
Triple_R





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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
Quote:
Actually, more than any other issue, this decentralizing one is the one that strikes right at the heart of Dion's view of Canada having a strong Trudeau-esque centralized government, and hence personally challenges Dion I would imagine.


In the book Rightside Up, Dion is someone who is shown defending provincial rights and the constitutional division of powers. Not as strongly as Harper and the boys but he does support them. Not that the poor communicator will ever get that message to Quebecers or the rest of Canada.


Wow... Mike Duffy keeps saying pretty much the exact opposite about Dion, and I have yet to see a Liberal correct him on it...

Poor communicators, yeah. :lol:
FF_Canuck





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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luca wrote:
As far as the voters are concerned, I hope you are right, this eventual election is too hot already and we can't drag faith related issues into it, especially after they didn't pay off in Ontario.


I didn't notice any faith related issues... are you talking about Voter ID and reinstating the Certificates? One's about the integrity of our system, the other's about the security of our nation.
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

westmanguy wrote:
kwlafayette wrote:
If it happens before a budget, I will vote CHP. Otherwise I will wait and see.


What exactly is wrong with carbon credits?

Corps pay money for not being green and that gives them an incentives to get green
Look at Europe for your answer. The government metes them out. Some businesses do the math, and realize that if they lay everyone off, shut down and sell the credits, they will make more money than if they carried on with business. Some businesses don't get enough, and have to buy some to continue operations. Europe's emissions have not gone down, but some people sure have made a lot of filthy lucre..

What exactly is right with carbon credits?
Riley W





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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

point taken, I would wait for specifics before removing your support for the CPC.
JBG





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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope, as a Yank, I'm not being presumptuous be being, apparently, the first out on this Board on the Throne Speech (link)..
There are a few sinkers in there that I noticed:

  1. Senate reform;
  2. Pullback from Kyoto;
  3. Reduction of inter-provincial trade barriers; and
  4. Greater barriers to interference in provincial affairs
On the trade barrier issue, I noticed some atypically blunt language:

Throne Speech wrote:
It is often harder to move goods and services across provincial boundaries than across our international borders. This hurts our competitive position but, more importantly, it is just not the way a country should work.


The language is similarly tough with regard to the Senate:

[quote="Throne Speech"]
Canadians understand that the federation is only as strong as the democratic institutions that underpin it. Our Government believes that Canada is not well served by the Senate in its current form. To ensure that our institutions reflect our shared commitment to democracy, our Government will continue its agenda of democratic reform by reintroducing important pieces of legislation from the last session, including direct consultations with voters on the selection of Senators and limitations on their tenure. In addition, the integrity of our federal voting system will be further strengthened through measures to confirm the visual identification of voters.]/quote]


It has the look and feel of a gauntlet properly being thrown (Throne???) down.
luca





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the powers of the Provinces and free trade these are core Tory values, and I wouldn't expect anything less from a Conservative government. Kudos.

What do people think of the mention of higher education costs? This sounds like a knock on the students' door, although most students tend to be liberal as far as I know. I study at McGill and apparently we're reputed the most right-wing university in Montreal, just because we wouldn't go on strike every five minutes. All this despite having an enormous liberal society.

Or maybe they are trying to get the message to middle-class families who might find it challenging to pay for uni tuition for their kids. This befuddles me though because the middle class should have been attracted to the Conservative party anyway.
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
Anyone hear Dion at the end of his speil on Duffy say thet the Liberal would reveal their confusion(he meant to say decision) tomorrow at 3:30. Nice!

I think the carbon trading market they are talking about will be a Canada only trading market rather than an international one. That way the money stays in the Country.

The only way a carbon market works is if there is a hard cap, and everyone is in it. You, me, and SaskPower, everybody has to watch their emissions. If you personally go over? No more hot water, no more heat from your furnace; a hard cap, unless you can buy some credits from someone else to keep heating your house. If SaskPower goes over? No more lights for the entire province. If the police go over? They have to walk to the crime scenes.

Now seriously, how realistic is that? Who is going to propose a system like that? Who is going to support it? The alternative is a system where you just keep emitting as usual, and just keep buying carbon credits; and there are no reductions. How many people are prepared to get a new car, new furnace, new solar panels, just to stay under some limit imposed by the government?

PS. When there are no carbon credits left in the whole country? Absolutely everything goes dark and silent; manufacturing, transportation, no one working for the rest of the year.
Triple_R





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After having watched numerous documentaries (both pro and con) on the concept of man-made global warming, I'm strongly leaning towards the position that the issue has been grossly exaggerated by many people in positions of influence and power. Basically, I think that a mountain has been made out of a molehill when it comes to this issue.

I suspect that 20 to 30 years down the line, people will look back on this period of time (2005 to 2010) with quite a bit of laughing and mocking over the huge deal that was made out of global warming. In 20 to 30 years, I think that we'll see that we made a huge deal out of something that wasn't anywhere near as dire as some suspected, and a lot of folks (including Al Gore) will have egg on their face, especially if they're still alive at the time.

Honestly, I hope that the Conservatives are simply saying just enough on the environment to not cost themselves a lot of votes on the issue, but don't intend to do a whole lot on the issue.
JBG





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Triple_R wrote:
I suspect that 20 to 30 years down the line, people will look back on this period of time (2005 to 2010) with quite a bit of laughing and mocking over the huge deal that was made out of global warming. In 20 to 30 years, I think that we'll see that we made a huge deal out of something that wasn't anywhere near as dire as some suspected, and a lot of folks (including Al Gore) will have egg on their face, especially if they're still alive at the time.
Exactly the time interval that it took to make laughingstocks out of the people who were panicking, after three hard winters spanning October 1976 to February 1979, about an "Ice Age". What a hoot.

Triple_R wrote:
Honestly, I hope that the Conservatives are simply saying just enough on the environment to not cost themselves a lot of votes on the issue, but don't intend to do a whole lot on the issue.
Agreed. Back in the 1970's there were those who wanted to blacken the Arctic ice floes in order to reduce "cooling". It's sort of like giving six year old buttons to real missiles in place of a Stratego set.
JBG





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

luca wrote:
I study at McGill and apparently we're reputed the most right-wing university in Montreal, just because we wouldn't go on strike every five minutes. All this despite having an enormous liberal society.
I assume that since McGill is a prestigious school, English speaking, and most students are there to learn, people consider it "right wing". As a left-winger myself, I find it insulting that valuing accomplishment and education is somehow a "right-wing" value.
Triple_R





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JBG wrote:
Triple_R wrote:
I suspect that 20 to 30 years down the line, people will look back on this period of time (2005 to 2010) with quite a bit of laughing and mocking over the huge deal that was made out of global warming. In 20 to 30 years, I think that we'll see that we made a huge deal out of something that wasn't anywhere near as dire as some suspected, and a lot of folks (including Al Gore) will have egg on their face, especially if they're still alive at the time.
Exactly the time interval that it took to make laughingstocks out of the people who were panicking, after three hard winters spanning October 1976 to February 1979, about an "Ice Age". What a hoot.


Great point. The beautiful thing is that this time the climate change issue has become more more all-encompassing than it was in the 70s. There will be no escaping a prominent laughingstock of a "legacy" for those panicking over suppossed man-made climate change this time if the next twenty to thirty years proves them wrong.
luca





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

education is universal, i suppose the value systems differ when it comes to accomplishment. Individual success is typically frowned upon by the left because it breaks the artificial equilibrium advocated by a planning state. My assumption is that the left's ideal marking system is pass/fail rather than grades, thus ensuring apparent uniformity in university output.

One of my older relatives, formerly very leftwing, told me of arrangements in Italian universities whereby some classes would bully most students to agree on the common grade (i.e. the professor would give the same grade to the whole class) or students would try to make the professor agree to the "political 18", i.e. the prof couldn't fail anyone, and any grade lower than 18 would be immediately changed to the pass grade. btw I am not joking.

As far as the throne speech and education are concerned, I thought the Tories would drive towards the lifting on government caps on fees and encouraging private sponsorships and support. I guess my assumptions were wrong.
kwlafayette





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Triple_R wrote:
After having watched numerous documentaries (both pro and con) on the concept of man-made global warming, I'm strongly leaning towards the position that the issue has been grossly exaggerated by many people in positions of influence and power. Basically, I think that a mountain has been made out of a molehill when it comes to this issue.

I suspect that 20 to 30 years down the line, people will look back on this period of time (2005 to 2010) with quite a bit of laughing and mocking over the huge deal that was made out of global warming. In 20 to 30 years, I think that we'll see that we made a huge deal out of something that wasn't anywhere near as dire as some suspected, and a lot of folks (including Al Gore) will have egg on their face, especially if they're still alive at the time.

Honestly, I hope that the Conservatives are simply saying just enough on the environment to not cost themselves a lot of votes on the issue, but don't intend to do a whole lot on the issue.
You mean, taking the Liberal position?
JBG





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

luca wrote:
education is universal, i suppose the value systems differ when it comes to accomplishment. Individual success is typically frowned upon by the left because it breaks the artificial equilibrium advocated by a planning state. My assumption is that the left's ideal marking system is pass/fail rather than grades, thus ensuring apparent uniformity in university output.
As you can see from my other posts here and on www.mapleleafweb.com (same handle, JBG) I'm extremely left wiing and have never frowned on individual success. In fact, one of the main tenets of liberalism (classic) was the breaking down of barriers to indiividual achievement, accomplishment and status for the benefit of the individual and society. The idea was and is that inherited status and racial and religious discrimination hurt everyone by artifically handicapping and hindering individual accomplishment. Read Kurt Vonnegut's short story "Harrison Bergeron" in Welcom to the Monkey House where people with talent were saddled with "handicaps" in order to equalize them, reduce them to the lowest common denominator. And Kurt Vonnegut certainly had good left-wing credentials.

luca wrote:

As far as the throne speech and education are concerned, I thought the Tories would drive towards the lifting on government caps on fees and encouraging private sponsorships and support. I guess my assumptions were wrong.

That may be a bit radical without a majority. That's the kind of thing a mandate of some kind would be needed for. It would be abusive to put something into a Throne Speech which in no way had support when the minority government was elected.
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