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is faith a choice
yes
66%
 66%  [ 14 ]
no
33%
 33%  [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 21

Author Message
theatheistjew





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Triple_R wrote:
As I've said before, I love it when agnostics/atheists/secularists start personifying the universe (as I find that they frequently do) because it clearly demonstrates how impossible it is to make comprehensive sense of reality with out in some way, shape, or form, conjuring up the image of a personal creative/designing force.

This is what I mean by belief in God simply being basic, common sense to me. Our reality makes more sense - it is actually less mysterious, and more understandable - when we posit a Creator as the answer to many otherwise unanswered questions.

Lets say man was extinct. It could easily have happened, and it could easily happen in the future. Then who would ponder the universe here on earth? Probably no one. And chimps too have complex brains, but they aren't quite equipped I think to think about the start of time or what happens to them after they die.
Just something to think about.

But I don't see why a creator or designing force is needed. I still don't get it. I used to get it, but I don't anymore.

1500 years ago, we could have said that lightning had to be caused by God getting angry because there was no other explanation for it. Right now, there isn't a consistent theory that is embraced universally by scientists to how the universe began, but I am confident that in the near future, there will be one that covers all the bases. Like I said, there are many theories out there that don't include God, but they all still have some holes at this moment.

The Big Bang theory wasn't confirmed until 1964, but it was first theorized in the early 1900's.
Craig
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
but the why you seem to be asking for is a philosophical question.


It is only philosophical because we have no idea. Let me rephrase so that it isn't philosophical. How is the universe here?

Quote:
It is like asking why are children sometimes stillborn. There are scientific explanations for this, and there doesn't have to be anything else.


Yes. But there are not scientific explanations for why we have a universe.
Craig
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And just in case you say Big Bang...

Quote:
The Big Bang is the cosmological model of the universe whose primary assertion is that the universe has expanded into its current state from a primordial condition of enormous density and temperature. The term is also used in a narrower sense to describe the fundamental "fireball" that erupted at or close to an initial timepoint in the history of our observed spacetime.[1]


How did it erupt?

How did the primordial condition get there?
Craig
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
Why humans are here? Or why the Universe is here?


Universe

Quote:
The Universe is only following the laws of physics. If you want to ask why the laws of physics are the way they are, I have no answer to that question.


I asked my wife who has a master's degree in cosmology (provided a mathematical proof that the universe could be the shape of a double donut for her thesis) and she couldn't help me.
theatheistjew





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
And just in case you say Big Bang...

Quote:
The Big Bang is the cosmological model of the universe whose primary assertion is that the universe has expanded into its current state from a primordial condition of enormous density and temperature. The term is also used in a narrower sense to describe the fundamental "fireball" that erupted at or close to an initial timepoint in the history of our observed spacetime.[1]


How did it erupt?

How did the primordial condition get there?

Here is one theory:
http://www.space.com/scienceas.....20425.html
gc





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
gc wrote:
Why humans are here? Or why the Universe is here?


Universe

Quote:
The Universe is only following the laws of physics. If you want to ask why the laws of physics are the way they are, I have no answer to that question.


I asked my wife who has a master's degree in cosmology (provided a mathematical proof that the universe could be the shape of a double donut for her thesis) and she couldn't help me.


Unfortunately, religion doesn't fare much better because it doesn't answer the question: Why is God here?
theatheistjew





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
Craig wrote:
gc wrote:
Why humans are here? Or why the Universe is here?


Universe

Quote:
The Universe is only following the laws of physics. If you want to ask why the laws of physics are the way they are, I have no answer to that question.


I asked my wife who has a master's degree in cosmology (provided a mathematical proof that the universe could be the shape of a double donut for her thesis) and she couldn't help me.


Unfortunately, religion doesn't fare much better because it doesn't answer the question: Why is God here?

Yes, if there is a God, who created God? If someone states that God is eternal, than why do they have a problem with the universe and time being eternal?
Ruth





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
Yes, if there is a God, who created God?

You're disturbing the pot for the sake of it.
Part of the definition of God is that He is uncreated.

-Ruth


Last edited by Ruth on Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Craig
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
Yes, if there is a God, who created God? If someone states that God is eternal, than why do they have a problem with the universe and time being eternal?


I never stated that God is eternal. I'm pointing out that ultimately science fails too. Diversion won't work guys.
theatheistjew





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Ruth"]
theatheistjew wrote:
Yes, if there is a God, who created God? /quote]
You're disturbing the pot for the sake of it.
Part of the definition of God is that He is uncreated.

-Ruth

From a scientific perspective, the universe has no creator either.
theatheistjew





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votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
Yes, if there is a God, who created God? If someone states that God is eternal, than why do they have a problem with the universe and time being eternal?


I never stated that God is eternal. I'm pointing out that ultimately science fails too. Diversion won't work guys.

I didn't say you did. But lets be honest, for those who state that the universe must have had a creator, and that you can't make something from nothing, ultimately their line of reasoning is that God is eternal but for some reason the universe can't be.

Science hasn't failed, like I said there just isn't a universal theory YET. I can link a few more theories for you though.
Craig
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
ultimately their line of reasoning is that God is eternal but for some reason the universe can't be.


And the corollary of that argument is that God could just as easily be the beginning as anything science could contend (at this point).
theatheistjew





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
ultimately their line of reasoning is that God is eternal but for some reason the universe can't be.


And the corollary of that argument is that God could just as easily be the beginning as anything science could contend (at this point).

I don't think God is needed in super string theory. Again, why even consider God? If the only evidence that God exists is that science doesn't know YET exactly how everything began. Like I said, if we were having this debate 1500 years ago, I could be hearing you say that God could easily be responsible for all lightning since science has failed to come up with an answer for it.
Craig
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
Again, why even consider God?


Why not consider him. Until I hear a better explanation I'll at least consider him.

Quote:
If the only evidence that God exists is that science doesn't know YET exactly how everything began.


I like how you added the word "exactly". Science doesn't have a clue. If science was close but simply was missing the details then maybe you would have an argument.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
Again, why even consider God?


Why not consider him. Until I hear a better explanation I'll at least consider him.
**********************************
Because there is no evidence that God exists. What you are asking is classic God in the gaps theory, and the gaps have closed down for everything else (example lightning). Why not consider that we are figments of some super being's imagination while we are at it too, since science can't prove that we are not.

Quote:
If the only evidence that God exists is that science doesn't know YET exactly how everything began.


I like how you added the word "exactly". Science doesn't have a clue. If science was close but simply was missing the details then maybe you would have an argument.

*********************************
I don't get it. I've linked one theory, and I've mention superstring theory. Scientists do have a clue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superstring_theory

Now this page is too much for my puny human brain:
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=16206
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