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urbanmonk





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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:

Then again, I'm not so sure that religion explains the "why"...if the only purpose of humans is to serve God, then what is the purpose of God?

Would God need a purpose?
I liked Don's statement in an earlier post: [GOD]"has always existed and - God the 'energetic' - is the source of all energy"
gc





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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

urbanmonk wrote:
Would God need a purpose?


Only if humans need a purpose. An argument that is often put forward by religious people is that without God there is no meaning to life. If the only meaning or purpose in our lives is God, then what is the purpose of God?

Quote:
I liked Don's statement in an earlier post: [GOD]"has always existed and - God the 'energetic' - is the source of all energy"


I don't believe that anything could have always existed, including God. There are many ways to see this, but I think the easiest way to explain it is to ask what would happen if I told you that I was going to do something (e.g. take out the garbage) infinity years from now. The answer is that it would NEVER happen because more time could always pass. Now go back infinity years in the past when God supposedly existed. Infinity years from then he would have created humans, however since it is infinity years away it too would never happen.
Craig
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

urbanmonk wrote:
gc wrote:

Then again, I'm not so sure that religion explains the "why"...if the only purpose of humans is to serve God, then what is the purpose of God?

Would God need a purpose?
I liked Don's statement in an earlier post: [GOD]"has always existed and - God the 'energetic' - is the source of all energy"


"God has always existed" isn't an explanation. At least it isn't an explanation that satisfies "why"?

I meant that it is better than science at explaining "why"? It certainly doesn't explain it completely. Some of the brightest people to ever live on this planet drove themselves insane trying to answer that question.
urbanmonk





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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Intelligent Design: Fact or Fable? Reply with quote

gc wrote:
urbanmonk wrote:
I believe original man possessed all the possible variations but natural selection has reduced them to the point where some variations are no longer in evidence (ie: Neanderthal Mans pronounced bone structure etc).


I'm certainly not an expert on religion, but I thought according to the bible we all descended from Noah and his wife? If that's the case, how did such variation arise?

I assume you're not setting up a straw man argument here!
Noah and his family, like all the animal pairs would have carried the genetic information required to produce the diversity we witness.
Craig
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

don muntean wrote:
Craig wrote:
don muntean wrote:
What created God? That sounds like a question to ask a Mormon :wink: - of course all energy [including us] has always existed and - God the 'energetic' - is the source of all energy...thus - nothing is from nothing...


The energy always existed? It had no start? I'm not satisfied with that answer.


"...Energy is converted from one form to another, but it is never created or destroyed..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy


1. That is a law of thermodynamics. I would be pretty reluctant to accept that human knowledge is infallible.

2. If energy can never be created or destroyed than how did the universe come to be. Perhaps you are suggesting that it always was - which certainly is acceptable - but I wouldn't use a human law of physics as proof of that. I wouldn't bet $100 on a human law of thermodynamics explaining why the universe exists. Besides, if the universe always existed then you haven't answered the question "why". Why has it always existed.
gc





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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Intelligent Design: Fact or Fable? Reply with quote

urbanmonk wrote:
Noah and his family, like all the animal pairs would have carried the genetic information required to produce the diversity we witness.


What race were Noah and his wife?

As for the comment about the strawman, I thought you were trying to argue that no new information could be added, and that mutations always involve the loss of genetic information? But perhaps I am mistaken?
urbanmonk





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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Intelligent Design: Fact or Fable? Reply with quote

Quote:
What race were Noah and his wife?
Don't know but I bet Noah's wife was a babe!
Quote:
As for the comment about the strawman, I thought you were trying to argue that no new information could be added, and that mutations always involve the loss of genetic information? But perhaps I am mistaken?

Mutations are accidents that produce a variant form of an already existing gene.
gc





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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Intelligent Design: Fact or Fable? Reply with quote

urbanmonk wrote:
Mutations are accidents that produce a variant form of an already existing gene.


Not necessarily. A mutation could produce a new gene from an otherwise nonfunctional segment of DNA.
Craig
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Intelligent Design: Fact or Fable? Reply with quote

urbanmonk wrote:
Mutations are accidents that produce a variant form of an already existing gene.


Just for clarification...

Quote:
Mutations create variations in the gene pool, and the less favorable (or deleterious) mutations are reduced in frequency in the gene pool by natural selection, while more favorable (beneficial or advantageous) mutations tend to accumulate, resulting in evolutionary change.
urbanmonk





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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Just for clarification...

Quote:
Mutations create variations in the gene pool, and the less favorable (or deleterious) mutations are reduced in frequency in the gene pool by natural selection, while more favorable (beneficial or advantageous) mutations tend to accumulate, resulting in evolutionary change.

For evolutionary change to take place mutations would have to add specified information, this does not happen. Mutations introduce new traits as a result of the already present information being scrambled. Most mutations are negative and usually cause a problem for the species, some are beneficial but an accumulation of them will not make a frog become a bird, it will just produce a weird or new variety of a frog.
Craig
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

urbanmonk wrote:
For evolutionary change to take place mutations would have to add specified information, this does not happen. Mutations introduce new traits as a result of the already present information being scrambled. Most mutations are negative and usually cause a problem for the species, some are beneficial but an accumulation of them will not make a frog become a bird, it will just produce a weird or new variety of a frog.


I'm not sure why you obsessed about this "information" thing. Genes are simply the arrangement of thousands of base pairs. When "information" is "lost" it simply means that the arrangements have change. Mutations are nothing more than the rearrangement of base pairs in a gene and the net change in "information" is zero.
urbanmonk





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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I'm not sure why you obsessed about this "information" thing."

Not obsessed Craig, just responding to your rational clarifications!

"When "information" is "lost" it simply means that the arrangements have change. Mutations are nothing more than the rearrangement of base pairs in a gene and the net change in "information" is zero."

That sounds about right, not sure how it argues in favor of evolutionary change though, more the opposite I would think.
Craig
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

urbanmonk wrote:
That sounds about right, not sure how it argues in favor of evolutionary change though, more the opposite I would think.


Simple. The changes happen in response to environmental pressures. Thankfully, we evolve with our environment and against our predators (mostly viruses and bacteria). Unfortunately, viruses and bacteria evolve much faster than we do and occasionally kill off millions of humans with weaker genes.
don muntean





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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
don muntean wrote:
Craig wrote:
don muntean wrote:
What created God? That sounds like a question to ask a Mormon :wink: - of course all energy [including us] has always existed and - God the 'energetic' - is the source of all energy...thus - nothing is from nothing...


The energy always existed? It had no start? I'm not satisfied with that answer.


"...Energy is converted from one form to another, but it is never created or destroyed..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy


1. That is a law of thermodynamics. I would be pretty reluctant to accept that human knowledge is infallible.

2. If energy can never be created or destroyed than how did the universe come to be. Perhaps you are suggesting that it always was - which certainly is acceptable - but I wouldn't use a human law of physics as proof of that. I wouldn't bet $100 on a human law of thermodynamics explaining why the universe exists. Besides, if the universe always existed then you haven't answered the question "why". Why has it always existed.


Actually I was getting at the law of conservation of energy - I think that it is logical to think that energy is forever it just changes its form. The universe 'evolves' out of the substance of the last 'creation' - I believe that 'soul' is the highest form of energy and that soul too is forever [without beginning or end] - I shall explain better later...
Cronus





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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is ample evidence for species evolving over the ages, although it's certainly possible that God started or guided the process.
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