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Mike McB





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Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

I originally asked the question if Alcoholism is a disease without giving any explanation as to how had any reason to be associated with this post.

Well alcoholism is a disease for which there is no known cure. The Medical association does recognize alcoholism as a disease. The disease can be put into submission but never cured.

Once the alcoholic takes a drink then the disease will become active again. The odds against an alcoholic becoming sober are highly unlikely. Not having a drink to an alcoholic is like a fish out of water. It is just not normal. However, it does happen and millions of alcoholics are able to achieve long term sobriety

How do they do this? Well they have to follow something called the 12 steps and once they hit step 2 "Came to believe that Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity" then their entire focus must shift to a new belief system or they will relapse.

Some people call this God, some call it a Higher power and others will follow a traditional religion and so on. The point is that they need something in their life to replace the alcohol or the void that not drinking leaves. This system has worked for millions of people and in fact it has migrated to well over 1200 self help groups world wide. It works and why it works no one really knows but it does. If you asked any recovering alcoholic if they could do this without a God in their life you might be surprised on what their answer might be.

People who have faith in God have seen evidence of God in their life. You ask anyone who has a faith in God and I can assure that you that they can name specifics around why they believe and have faith. The atheist will not believe it but other people who have had similar experiences certainly will.

Can we really prove that there is a God out there? Well if you are looking for tangible evidence then probably not. But from personal experience in my life I can tell you that I am 100% percent certain that there is a God because I have experienced his/her presence in my life. There are things that have happened that cannot be explained; things that make absolutely no intellectual sense. What it is, I am not quite sure, but to say that there is nothing out there is pretty darn arrogant and narrow minded. Thats like saying we understand everything about everything, which we don't.

600 years ago the earth was flat until someone took a leap of faith and proved that it wasn't
100 years ago we couldn't reach the moon. Physics said it couldn't happen.
70 years ago we would never break the sound barrier.
1 year ago people concluded that earth just had its experienced it's 10 hottest years of all time.

Millions and perhaps billions of people would disagree with the atheist and you gotta ask why. If I am wrong and the others like me so what. At least I know that I have tried for constant self improvement and I am not completely self-centered to believe that I am the mightiest/highest power out there. There just might be something more important and more powerful then Mike. Thats a comforting feeling.

As for the secular society please click the link.

And I think it is kinda cool that molecules, amino acids or whatever were able to form everything that you see. I believe in evolution and creationism and I just don't think that we understand everything. And I don't think we ever will.
Zak





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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike McB wrote:
Hi,
Well alcoholism is a disease for which there is no known cure. The Medical association does recognize alcoholism as a disease. The disease can be put into submission but never cured.

A disease is more complicated than an addiction. You are trying to equate someone who has cancer with someone who suffers from alcoholism which doesn't seem fair since alcoholics still have control over their bodies and can take responsibility for them if they so choose.

Mike McB wrote:

How do they do this? Well they have to follow something called the 12 steps and once they hit step 2 "Came to believe that Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity" then their entire focus must shift to a new belief system or they will relapse.

Some people call this God, some call it a Higher power and others will follow a traditional religion and so on. The point is that they need something in their life to replace the alcohol or the void that not drinking leaves. This system has worked for millions of people and in fact it has migrated to well over 1200 self help groups world wide. It works and why it works no one really knows but it does. If you asked any recovering alcoholic if they could do this without a God in their life you might be surprised on what their answer might be.


So what are the statistics on how a higher power can cure your diseases? From what I understand, you are just as likely to 'cure' your alchoholism by yourself as you are from any higher power. I know a few people who have had alcohol problems in the past an they say they went sober because they finally realised they had to take responsibility for their actions or risk harming the people they care about. No one has to rely on a higher power that may or may not exist when they can solve their own problems with help from professionals and family.

Mike McB wrote:
Can we really prove that there is a God out there? Well if you are looking for tangible evidence then probably not. But from personal experience in my life I can tell you that I am 100% percent certain that there is a God because I have experienced his/her presence in my life.

So you admit that there is no tangible evidence for the existance of God and then say you are 100% that he exists? This is the kind of reasoning that is fueling the new atheism movement. It's fine to have a personnal belief in what ever you choose (even atheists have no problems with that) It's when you start claiming that your god interacts with the real world that causes problems.

Mike McB wrote:
There are things that have happened that cannot be explained; things that make absolutely no intellectual sense. What it is, I am not quite sure, but to say that there is nothing out there is pretty darn arrogant and narrow minded. Thats like saying we understand everything about everything, which we don't.


Atheists are certainly arrogant but they aren't narrow-minded. No atheist has ever said that he/she knows everything and they never claim they know everything. It's the theists who claim that 'God did it' but neglect to show us why and how who are arrogant.

Mike McB wrote:
600 years ago the earth was flat until someone took a leap of faith and proved that it wasn't
100 years ago we couldn't reach the moon. Physics said it couldn't happen.
70 years ago we would never break the sound barrier.
1 year ago people concluded that earth just had its experienced it's 10 hottest years of all time.

These are all great examples on how we can apply empirical scientific methods to solve our problems. Someday those methods might prove if your god exists or not.

Mike McB wrote:
Millions and perhaps billions of people would disagree with the atheist and you gotta ask why. If I am wrong and the others like me so what. At least I know that I have tried for constant self improvement and I am not completely self-centered to believe that I am the mightiest/highest power out there. There just might be something more important and more powerful then Mike. Thats a comforting feeling.


There are more non-Christians on the planet than Christians, there are more non-atheists than atheists, there are more non-Muslims than Muslims, etc... Non-atheists disagree with each other as often as they do with atheists.

I don't believe in a god but I know I am not the mightiest power out there. I am just a small speck of dust in time and so I live my life the best I can because it is the only one I will ever have. I strive for constant self improvement because I am responsible for my own life and actions and I find it comforting that there are trillions of other lifeforms doing the same thing.

Mike McB wrote:
And I think it is kinda cool that molecules, amino acids or whatever were able to form everything that you see. I believe in evolution and creationism and I just don't think that we understand everything. And I don't think we ever will.

Agreed 8) (except for the creation part)
Mike McB





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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A disease is more complicated than an addiction. You are trying to equate someone who has cancer with someone who suffers from alcoholism which doesn't seem fair since alcoholics still have control over their bodies and can take responsibility for them if they so choose.


To be honest with you, I don't want to debate with you on whether or not Alcoholism is a disease. Alcholism is a disease and and it fits all the criteria of a disease. It is recognized as a disease both by the American Medical Association as well as Canadian.


Quote:
So what are the statistics on how a higher power can cure your diseases? From what I understand, you are just as likely to 'cure' your alchoholism by yourself as you are from any higher power. I know a few people who have had alcohol problems in the past an they say they went sober because they finally realised they had to take responsibility for their actions or risk harming the people they care about. No one has to rely on a higher power that may or may not exist when they can solve their own problems with help from professionals and family.


AA has a membership of well over 5 million people. I am encouraged that you know people that have become sober because they had to take responsibility for their actions. You must remember that alcoholism is but a symptom of a much greater disease which requires complete change in attitude and ideas. By simply taking responsibility of for your actions can help in the effort to arrest the disease but is by no means any answer. I believe that step 9 says "Made direct amends to all people that we had harmed except when to do so would injure them or others". As you can see that is only one piece of the recovery puzzle. People who rely on this will relapse eventually.
Change is the answer for alcoholics and for them to change they must rely on a higher power to help them with it. I am sure you can debate me on this but I suggest that before you do that please do some research on the disease and what professionals recommend recovering alcoholics do when they leave their facility or treatment program.


Quote:
Atheists are certainly arrogant but they aren't narrow-minded. No atheist has ever said that he/she knows everything and they never claim they know everything. It's the theists who claim that 'God did it' but neglect to show us why and how who are arrogant.


I agree with you. I myself don't like people pushing their ideologies on me without any form of proof.
I love the people who say that Jesus did not exist. They are utterly wrong and speak without doing any research or if they do it is tainted. Every major religion knows that Jesus existed and in fact his existence is extremely well documented. It just baffles me when people say it didn't happen. History is History. I am not suggesting that Jesus is the son of God but he most definitely existed.

Mike McB wrote:
600 years ago the earth was flat until someone took a leap of faith and proved that it wasn't
100 years ago we couldn't reach the moon. Physics said it couldn't happen.
70 years ago we would never break the sound barrier.
1 year ago people concluded that earth just had its experienced it's 10 hottest years of all time.

Quote:
These are all great examples on how we can apply empirical scientific methods to solve our problems. Someday those methods might prove if your god exists or not.


I think the point was that Science can be wrong too.

Quote:
There are more non-Christians on the planet than Christians, there are more non-atheists than atheists, there are more non-Muslims than Muslims, etc... Non-atheists disagree with each other as often as they do with atheists.


The last I heard was that 95% of the world's population believes in a Higher power, God or Superior intelligence in one form or another. I think your looking completely at specifics religions and so on. There are many many different ideas about God/Higher Power out there not just the standard Christian, Muslim etc.

Mike McB wrote:
And I think it is kinda cool that molecules, amino acids or whatever were able to form everything that you see. I believe in evolution and creationism and I just don't think that we understand everything. And I don't think we ever will.

Quote:
Agreed 8)(except for the creation part)


I am glad that we were able to agree on somethings sorta. :D
FascistLibertarian





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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A disease for which the best treatment is to believe in God......
:roll:
I would like to see the CMA's def of what is a disease.
So what exactly isnt a disease? When are people accountable for their actions?
Maybe murders etc all have a disease?
or how about we agree, 'violence' is a disease?

These definitions are total bs, people make them so large as to include everything and become meaningless.
gc





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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
Who created the molecules?

Who created God?
gc





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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
Yes, which is why I said that science and religion are on an equal footing regarding this topic. Both can't explain the creation of the universe equally.

But which is more plausible, that unintelligent, relatively simple particles could pop into existence (which to some extent has been seen before, albeit not on the scale of the big bang) or that a super-intelligent being could simply pop into existence?

If you think they are on equal ground, then I'd like to know WHY people believe in God. Most people I have talked to state one of two reasons:
a) Because the bible said so - which doesn't really cut it for me. Just because it's written in a book by I have no idea who, or when, doesn't make it true.
b) Because they have a hard time believing that life could arise on it's own without the help from a creator - which also doesn't really cut it for me, because it doesn't explain how God could arise. And I have an easier time believing the former.
mrsocko





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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GC wrote:
Quote:
If you think they are on equal ground, then I'd like to know WHY people believe in God. Most people I have talked to state one of two reasons:


Most people you speak to must be stupid. The only way to know God exists is to accept his invitation to know him. If he doesn't accept your invitation then he doesn't exist. If he does accept it he does exist.

Pretty simple really. Except for the ass that won't give God a chance to prove he exists.

You seem to think that God's existence can be argued one way or the other. I could say my wife exists and explain our whole relationship in detail, but if you choose not to believe me in your mind she wouldn't exist.

The reason I believe in God is because he has performed miracles in my life that I cannot explain away. Those miracles are documented on other threads on this blog.

Oh and by the way God wasn't created. He has always existed.
Mike McB





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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You seem to think that God's existence can be argued one way or the other. I could say my wife exists and explain our whole relationship in detail, but if you choose not to believe me in your mind she wouldn't exist.

The reason I believe in God is because he has performed miracles in my life that I cannot explain away. Those miracles are documented on other threads on this blog.


I am with you 100%. He has performed countless miracles in my life as well. Things that just cannot be explained. I will give you one small example of something that cannot be explained although some will call simply coincidence. This is not really a miracle but I believe that God listened to my prayers and gave me some sort of reassurance that everything was ok. This is just one of MANY examples I can give you.

A person I had not seen or heard from in MONTHS and I knew was in trouble in his life. He has serious problems with drugs and alcohol and I was concerned for his well being. So one day I decided to pray for him. I prayed for his well being and such. Within 2 hours he called me and talked to me. It was truly amazing.

Every time I have prayed for something I have received it. I try not to pray for myself often but sometimes when I am in trouble I will and I have always without fail received from God.

Quote:
Oh and by the way God wasn't created. He has always existed.


Excellent Point!


Last edited by Mike McB on Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
Mike McB





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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I would like to see the CMA's def of what is a disease.


Perhaps a little research would clear that up.

Quote:
So what exactly isnt a disease? When are people accountable for their actions?


Alcoholics are not responsible for their disease but they are responsible for their actions. It is through their unacceptable actions that they come terms with their disease and seek help.
Quote:
Maybe murders etc all have a disease?


Perhaps they do! But they are responsible for what they do. Look at pedophiles for instance. How can anybody not say that they are very sick individuals. Does this mean because they are sick that they shouldn't be held accountable? Absolutely not, they should be locked up for the rest of their lives and if they happen to kill someone during their actions then I think that more severe action is warranted.

Quote:
or how about we agree, 'violence' is a disease?


You are attempting compare apples to oranges. Are you calling alcoholics murderers? I suppose some are but so are some Liberals and so are some Conservatives. The point was that millions of Alcoholics have changed and have never picked up a drop of alcohol again because they have "God AS THEY UNDERSTAND HIM" in their life.

That is a fact and it is provable. I suggest you do some research on the internet. Go to various websites, ask people in recovery do this instead of closing your mind on it. Maybe one day you could direct a friend or loved one who has a problem to something that can dramatically change their life for the better. Maybe even save their life. Is that really such a bad thing?
Craig
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
Craig wrote:
Who created the molecules?

Who created God?


For the third time!!!

I contend that science and religion are equal on this because they BOTH can't explain creation.
Craig
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
He has always existed.


Then science can simply counter with...

Nothing created the universe it just always existed.

To me neither answer is satisfactory. Why does God exist? Is seems illogical to me that something doesn't have a start.
Mike McB





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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:


To me neither answer is satisfactory. Why does God exist? Is seems illogical to me that something doesn't have a start.


It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. But maybe as human we do not have the intellect or cognitive ability to be able to understand it. Maybe God does not live in Linear Time. If there is a God as I am sure there is then I suppose we won't get any of these answers until we die.
Craig
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike McB wrote:
Craig wrote:


To me neither answer is satisfactory. Why does God exist? Is seems illogical to me that something doesn't have a start.


It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. But maybe as human we do not have the intellect or cognitive ability to be able to understand it. Maybe God does not live in Linear Time. If there is a God as I am sure there is then I suppose we won't get any of these answers until we die.


Sure. In any argument about any subject you can say that there is the possibility that we just don't have the knowledge to understand it. It is human nature to draw conclusions based on our current body of knowledge. I guess that's why faith is such an important part of religion - and it is the only part that I personally struggle with.
gc





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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
For the third time!!!

I contend that science and religion are equal on this because they BOTH can't explain creation.

And for the third time I'll ask you this question which you keep ignoring:
"But which is more plausible, that unintelligent, relatively simple particles could pop into existence (which to some extent has been seen before, albeit not on the scale of the big bang) or that a super-intelligent being could simply pop into existence? "
gc





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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
Then science can simply counter with...

Nothing created the universe it just always existed.

To me neither answer is satisfactory. Why does God exist? Is seems illogical to me that something doesn't have a start.

Exactly. Everything, including the Universe and God, must have had a beginning.
Also, see this post for one reason why nothing can have existed forever.
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