Home FAQ Search Memberlist User Groups Register Login   

BloggingTories.ca Forum IndexBloggingTories.ca Forum Index
    Index     FAQ     Search     Register     Login         JOIN THE DISCUSSION - CLICK HERE      

*NEW* Login or register using your Facebook account.

Not a member? Join the fastest growing conservative community!
Membership is free and takes 15 seconds


CLICK HERE or use Facebook to login or register ----> Connect



Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next  

Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 5 of 8
View previous topic :: View next topic  

Your religious persuasion (or there lack of)
1) Christianity (all forms, Catholicism, Christian Protestants, Christian Orthodox)
50%
 50%  [ 35 ]
2) Atheism
20%
 20%  [ 14 ]
3) Agnostic (Don't Know)
14%
 14%  [ 10 ]
4) Theist with no organized religion
8%
 8%  [ 6 ]
5) Other
5%
 5%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 69

Author Message
don muntean





Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 2262
Reputation: 34.9Reputation: 34.9Reputation: 34.9
votes: 8
Location: Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AutumnFalls wrote:
don muntean wrote:
AutumnFalls wrote:
mrsocko wrote:
Quote:
Christian, specifically LDS (also known as Mormon)


I've read some accounts of Mormonism which show it to be very close to historical Christianity and then some accounts that don't.

Do LDS believe Jesus is God? Do they believe in the Trinity?
I personally believe it is. We believe that Jesus is the Son of God. As for the Trinity, we don't believe it. We believe God, Christ and the Holy Spirit to be three separate beings. I'm a bit unsure as to what you mean by historical Christianity. Are you referring to New Testament Christianity? If that is the case, yes I believe we do, in so far as we have a prophet and apostles organized in much the same way as it was in biblical times.


Mormons also believe that God was once a human like us! :?
News to me....I think you're mistaken here.


Oh no I'm not wrong at all...

"The Mormon Concept of God

Although there is certainly disagreement among Mormon scholars concerning some precise points of doctrine, it is safe to say the LDS church currently teaches that God is, in effect, (1) a contingent being, who was at one time not God (not necessary and not eternally God); (2) limited in knowledge (not truly omniscient), power (not omnipotent), and being (not omnipresent or immutable); (3) one of many gods; (4) a corporeal (bodily) being, who physically dwells at a particular spatiotemporal location and is therefore not omnipresent like the biblical God (respecting His intrinsic divine nature-we are not considering the Incarnation of the Son of God here); and (5) a being who is subject to the laws and principles of a universe He did not create.

The Mormon concept of God can best be grasped by understanding the overall Mormon worldview and how the deity fits into it. Mormonism teaches that God the Father is a resurrected, "exalted" human being named Elohim who was at one time not God. Rather, he was once a mortal man on another planet who, through obedience to the precepts of his God, eventually attained exaltation, or godhood, himself through "eternal progression." The Mormon God, located in time and space, has a body of flesh and bone and thus is neither spirit nor omnipresent. Joseph Smith, founder and chief prophet of Mormonism, asserts:

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! . . . I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute this idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. . . It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible . . . Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.4 The Father has a body of flesh and bone as tangible as man's. . . . 5
(emphases added)

Omniscience, according to Mormon theology, is one of the attributes one attains when reaching godhood. Mormons appear to be divided, however, on the meaning of omniscience. It seems that some Mormons believe omniscience to mean that God has absolute and total knowledge about the past, present, and future.6 This view is consistent with the biblical view. However, the dominant Mormon tradition teaches that God increases in knowledge and, consequently, God does not have absolute and total knowledge.7 This is why Brigham Young, Smith's successor as president of the Mormon church, and his counselors pronounced (both in 1860 and 1865) as false doctrine Orson Pratt's claim that "God cannot learn new truths."8 Ironically, Pratt's claim is consistent with the biblical view of God. Wilford Woodruff, a recognized Mormon authority, taught, "God Himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion and will do so worlds without end."9 And yet another church authority, Lorenzo Snow, declared, "We will continue on improving, advancing, and increasing in wisdom, intelligence, power, and dominion, worlds without end."10

Once Elohim attained godhood, He then created this present world by "organizing" both eternally preexistent, inorganic matter and the preexistent primal intelligences from which human spirits are made.

Mormon scholar Hyrum L. Andrus explains:

Though man's spirit is organized from a pure and fine substance which possesses certain properties of life, Joseph Smith seems to have taught that within each individual spirit there is a central primal intelligence (a central directing principle of life), and that man's central primal intelligence is a personal entity possessing some degree of life and certain rudimentary cognitive powers before the time the human spirit was organized.11

For this reason, Joseph Smith wrote that "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be."12 In other words, man's basic essence or primal intelligence is as eternal as God's and was not created by God.

The Mormon God, by organizing this world out of preexistent matter, has granted these organized spirits the opportunity to receive physical bodies, pass through mortality, and eventually progress to godhood-just as this opportunity was given him by his Father God. Consequently, if human persons on earth faithfully obey the precepts of Mormonism they, too, can attain godhood like Elohim before them. Based on the statements of church authorities, some Mormon scholars contend that a premortal spirit is "organized" by God through "spirit birth." In this process, human spirits are somehow organized through literal sexual relations between our Heavenly Father and a mother god, whereby they are conceived and born as spirit children prior to entering the mortal realm (although all human persons prior to spirit birth existed as intelligences in some primal state of cognitive personal existence).13 Since the God of Mormonism was himself organized (or spirit-birthed) by his God, who himself is a "creation" of yet another God, and so on forever, Mormonism teaches that the God over this world is a contingent being in an infinite lineage of gods.14 This is why Joseph Smith can declare, "Hence, if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? . . . I will preach the plurality of the Gods."15

Brigham Young clearly understood the logic of Smith's theology: "How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds."16 Thus, Mormonism is a polytheistic religion which denies that God is a necessary being who has eternally existed as God.

Mormonism therefore teaches that certain basic realities have always existed and are indestructible even by God. In other words, God came from the universe; the universe did not come from God (although he did form this planet out of preexistent matter). For Mormonism, God, like man, is merely another creature in the universe. In the Mormon universe, God is not responsible for creating or sustaining matter, energy, natural laws, human personhood, moral principles, the process of salvation (or exaltation), or much of anything. In fact, instead of the universe being subject to Him (which is the biblical view), the Mormon God is subject to the universe. The Mormon God is far from omnipotent. He is not the God of the Bible."

http://www.4truth.net/site/c.h.....of_God.htm

So to each their own but Mormons are not Christians in the sense of 'Christian'.

Their 'theology' does not share ANY of the traditional views of God as found in Judaism or Christianity [or even Hinduism and Islam!].

No offense to you but Mormonism is a total fraud as far as a belief system goes but - that's not to say that Mormons are in some way 'bad people' because they believe in nonsense - they're just seriously misguided.
Panther Sphere





Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 84
Reputation: 24Reputation: 24
votes: 2

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catholic. It may have went off course during it's time.. it's ran by fallible human beings afterall.. I mean give it a break, BUT.. it's still the One True Church and this can NOT be denied. The Catholic Church is the worlds largest charity, you will have people complain that the vatican is so "rich" and how this doesn't play with that of what Jesus taught, but the fact is all those riches have been donated and given to them over the years, most of those items are indeed priceless.. they generate the money through their museum tours and so forth that allows them to do God's good work around the globe! If they got rid of all those things they would have no charity to give! Anyways just thought I'd bring that up cause once someone noted how "rich" the vatican is and how "bad" that is supposed to be. Wrong.

Anyways, I will never abandon it because some church that was dreamed up in the last 400 years (*cough*Baptist*cough*) tells me "i'm wrong!" or in a "cult" using all the typical uneducated anti Catholic rhetoric they love to use. Nothing drives me more mad than people who talk shite about the Catholic church but do so without any REAL knowledge on the subject(s) just their misguided brainwashed disdain for it that they've learned no doubt from their own churches/pastors. I always love the idol worship crap that is thrown out by people. Misguided lies, lies, lies... if they done any real research and not just what any of the 33,000 confused anti-catholic churches are telling them. No offense to the other denominations that respect the Catholic church like Anglicans/Lutherans for example they are cool, but the ones who think they can tear down God's church though, they are the ones that really are going to have to answer for their nonsense.

Bad Churches: Mormon, Jehovah (stay away.. it's misguided twisting of God's word!)
Good Churches: Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran (or any church that doesn't promote anti Catholic nonsense)

This will be my last post in this thread, cause I'm sure someone will come along to try and debate me and tell me how bad the Catholic church is or how it's not the One True Church even though real history teaches us it all started with us, and I have no interest in debating people who don't have the fact straight and are just using their misguided banter. :P
don muntean





Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 2262
Reputation: 34.9Reputation: 34.9Reputation: 34.9
votes: 8
Location: Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Panther Sphere wrote:
Catholic. It may have went off course during it's time.. it's ran by fallible human beings afterall.. I mean give it a break, BUT.. it's still the One True Church and this can NOT be denied. The Catholic Church is the worlds largest charity, you will have people complain that the vatican is so "rich" and how this doesn't play with that of what Jesus taught, but the fact is all those riches have been donated and given to them over the years, most of those items are indeed priceless.. they generate the money through their museum tours and so forth that allows them to do God's good work around the globe! If they got rid of all those things they would have no charity to give! Anyways just thought I'd bring that up cause once someone noted how "rich" the vatican is and how "bad" that is supposed to be. Wrong.

Anyways, I will never abandon it because some church that was dreamed up in the last 400 years (*cough*Baptist*cough*) tells me "i'm wrong!" or in a "cult" using all the typical uneducated anti Catholic rhetoric they love to use. Nothing drives me more mad than people who talk shite about the Catholic church but do so without any REAL knowledge on the subject(s) just their misguided brainwashed disdain for it that they've learned no doubt from their own churches/pastors. I always love the idol worship crap that is thrown out by people. Misguided lies, lies, lies... if they done any real research and not just what any of the 33,000 confused anti-catholic churches are telling them. No offense to the other denominations that respect the Catholic church like Anglicans/Lutherans for example they are cool, but the ones who think they can tear down God's church though, they are the ones that really are going to have to answer for their nonsense.

Bad Churches: Mormon, Jehovah (stay away.. it's misguided twisting of God's word!)
Good Churches: Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran (or any church that doesn't promote anti Catholic nonsense)

This will be my last post in this thread, cause I'm sure someone will come along to try and debate me and tell me how bad the Catholic church is or how it's not the One True Church even though real history teaches us it all started with us, and I have no interest in debating people who don't have the fact straight and are just using their misguided banter. :P


It's a great church - has lots of historical baggage but has tried to do better - but the 'one' true church - not! There is NO "one true church" or ONE true path - all paths have some answers none has all the answers. God is not so narrow as to exclude peoples of other faiths from His Kingdom. I know you won't agree but - that's a fact.
Panther Sphere





Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 84
Reputation: 24Reputation: 24
votes: 2

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

don muntean wrote:
It's a great church - has lots of historical baggage but has tried to do better - but the 'one' true church - not! There is NO "one true church" or ONE true path - all paths have some answers none has all the answers. God is not so narrow as to exclude peoples of other faiths from His Kingdom. I know you won't agree but - that's a fact.

I know I said I wasn't going to reply but I like you and almost all the opinions you give on this forum so you're an exception. :D When I said One True Church I didn't mean it exactly as exclusive but more so in the vein of it's where it all started. I don't believe God would exclude those in other faiths but I think he would have a major problem with those in other faiths who try and destroy his church! You can't go back in history and find 33,000 off shoot protestant Churches,... you only find the Catholic/Orthodox, so for me it's always just a bit of a weird slap in the face when people of newer Churches try and degrade the first Church that Peter started (some will deny this and whether or not Peter did or not and whether or not he's the First Pope it still doesn't change the fact that the Catholic church is where it all started), I don't think protestant churches are bad if they stick to God and not trying to destroy where it all started by preaching catholic hate messages and mis-information/lies. :)
Libertas





Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 358
Reputation: 14.6
votes: 6
Location: Medicine Hat, AB

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Christian Atheist.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/.....eism.shtml
AutumnFalls





Joined: 10 Jun 2009
Posts: 15
Reputation: 3.5Reputation: 3.5Reputation: 3.5
Location: Western Canada

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

don muntean wrote:
AutumnFalls wrote:
don muntean wrote:
AutumnFalls wrote:
mrsocko wrote:
Quote:
Christian, specifically LDS (also known as Mormon)


I've read some accounts of Mormonism which show it to be very close to historical Christianity and then some accounts that don't.

Do LDS believe Jesus is God? Do they believe in the Trinity?
I personally believe it is. We believe that Jesus is the Son of God. As for the Trinity, we don't believe it. We believe God, Christ and the Holy Spirit to be three separate beings. I'm a bit unsure as to what you mean by historical Christianity. Are you referring to New Testament Christianity? If that is the case, yes I believe we do, in so far as we have a prophet and apostles organized in much the same way as it was in biblical times.


Mormons also believe that God was once a human like us! :?
News to me....I think you're mistaken here.


Oh no I'm not wrong at all...

"The Mormon Concept of God

Although there is certainly disagreement among Mormon scholars concerning some precise points of doctrine, it is safe to say the LDS church currently teaches that God is, in effect, (1) a contingent being, who was at one time not God (not necessary and not eternally God); (2) limited in knowledge (not truly omniscient), power (not omnipotent), and being (not omnipresent or immutable); (3) one of many gods; (4) a corporeal (bodily) being, who physically dwells at a particular spatiotemporal location and is therefore not omnipresent like the biblical God (respecting His intrinsic divine nature-we are not considering the Incarnation of the Son of God here); and (5) a being who is subject to the laws and principles of a universe He did not create.

The Mormon concept of God can best be grasped by understanding the overall Mormon worldview and how the deity fits into it. Mormonism teaches that God the Father is a resurrected, "exalted" human being named Elohim who was at one time not God. Rather, he was once a mortal man on another planet who, through obedience to the precepts of his God, eventually attained exaltation, or godhood, himself through "eternal progression." The Mormon God, located in time and space, has a body of flesh and bone and thus is neither spirit nor omnipresent. Joseph Smith, founder and chief prophet of Mormonism, asserts:

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! . . . I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute this idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. . . It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible . . . Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.4 The Father has a body of flesh and bone as tangible as man's. . . . 5
(emphases added)

Omniscience, according to Mormon theology, is one of the attributes one attains when reaching godhood. Mormons appear to be divided, however, on the meaning of omniscience. It seems that some Mormons believe omniscience to mean that God has absolute and total knowledge about the past, present, and future.6 This view is consistent with the biblical view. However, the dominant Mormon tradition teaches that God increases in knowledge and, consequently, God does not have absolute and total knowledge.7 This is why Brigham Young, Smith's successor as president of the Mormon church, and his counselors pronounced (both in 1860 and 1865) as false doctrine Orson Pratt's claim that "God cannot learn new truths."8 Ironically, Pratt's claim is consistent with the biblical view of God. Wilford Woodruff, a recognized Mormon authority, taught, "God Himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion and will do so worlds without end."9 And yet another church authority, Lorenzo Snow, declared, "We will continue on improving, advancing, and increasing in wisdom, intelligence, power, and dominion, worlds without end."10

Once Elohim attained godhood, He then created this present world by "organizing" both eternally preexistent, inorganic matter and the preexistent primal intelligences from which human spirits are made.

Mormon scholar Hyrum L. Andrus explains:

Though man's spirit is organized from a pure and fine substance which possesses certain properties of life, Joseph Smith seems to have taught that within each individual spirit there is a central primal intelligence (a central directing principle of life), and that man's central primal intelligence is a personal entity possessing some degree of life and certain rudimentary cognitive powers before the time the human spirit was organized.11

For this reason, Joseph Smith wrote that "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be."12 In other words, man's basic essence or primal intelligence is as eternal as God's and was not created by God.

The Mormon God, by organizing this world out of preexistent matter, has granted these organized spirits the opportunity to receive physical bodies, pass through mortality, and eventually progress to godhood-just as this opportunity was given him by his Father God. Consequently, if human persons on earth faithfully obey the precepts of Mormonism they, too, can attain godhood like Elohim before them. Based on the statements of church authorities, some Mormon scholars contend that a premortal spirit is "organized" by God through "spirit birth." In this process, human spirits are somehow organized through literal sexual relations between our Heavenly Father and a mother god, whereby they are conceived and born as spirit children prior to entering the mortal realm (although all human persons prior to spirit birth existed as intelligences in some primal state of cognitive personal existence).13 Since the God of Mormonism was himself organized (or spirit-birthed) by his God, who himself is a "creation" of yet another God, and so on forever, Mormonism teaches that the God over this world is a contingent being in an infinite lineage of gods.14 This is why Joseph Smith can declare, "Hence, if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? . . . I will preach the plurality of the Gods."15

Brigham Young clearly understood the logic of Smith's theology: "How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds."16 Thus, Mormonism is a polytheistic religion which denies that God is a necessary being who has eternally existed as God.

Mormonism therefore teaches that certain basic realities have always existed and are indestructible even by God. In other words, God came from the universe; the universe did not come from God (although he did form this planet out of preexistent matter). For Mormonism, God, like man, is merely another creature in the universe. In the Mormon universe, God is not responsible for creating or sustaining matter, energy, natural laws, human personhood, moral principles, the process of salvation (or exaltation), or much of anything. In fact, instead of the universe being subject to Him (which is the biblical view), the Mormon God is subject to the universe. The Mormon God is far from omnipotent. He is not the God of the Bible."

http://www.4truth.net/site/c.h.....of_God.htm

So to each their own but Mormons are not Christians in the sense of 'Christian'.

Their 'theology' does not share ANY of the traditional views of God as found in Judaism or Christianity [or even Hinduism and Islam!].

No offense to you but Mormonism is a total fraud as far as a belief system goes but - that's not to say that Mormons are in some way 'bad people' because they believe in nonsense - they're just seriously misguided.


First of all, quotes without sufficient citation are pure BS and second of all, siting a secondary source on any religion is not valid. Secondary to that is your "research" is only from dubious second hand stories of "true" quotes and information. In other words you are using something akin to using wikipedia in a university paper. The information is not reliable. If you were to bring out the scriptures, talks from the church leaders etc, etc - church doctrine in other words - from reliable sources such as official LDS sites, I may concede the point. Otherwise it is moot.

In all honestly I think that the response to my stating my religion is offensive. I do not believe that this thread was intended as a Mormon bashing thread, nor do I believe that it was intended to argue which religion is "best." I did not make any derogatory statements towards any other religion in my post and I respect the right to believe that none will be made of mine. We are all hopefully mature enough here to accept our differences without bashing them.

Panther, I am surprised at your post. You commented on how you dislike and don't want others to claim your religion is a "cult" or make derogatory comments about it and yet you do so to my religion and JW. If you wish to have a common courtesy extended to you, it is not without reason to ask the same of you.
don muntean





Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 2262
Reputation: 34.9Reputation: 34.9Reputation: 34.9
votes: 8
Location: Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AutumnFalls wrote:
don muntean wrote:
AutumnFalls wrote:
don muntean wrote:
AutumnFalls wrote:
mrsocko wrote:
Quote:
Christian, specifically LDS (also known as Mormon)


I've read some accounts of Mormonism which show it to be very close to historical Christianity and then some accounts that don't.

Do LDS believe Jesus is God? Do they believe in the Trinity?
I personally believe it is. We believe that Jesus is the Son of God. As for the Trinity, we don't believe it. We believe God, Christ and the Holy Spirit to be three separate beings. I'm a bit unsure as to what you mean by historical Christianity. Are you referring to New Testament Christianity? If that is the case, yes I believe we do, in so far as we have a prophet and apostles organized in much the same way as it was in biblical times.


Mormons also believe that God was once a human like us! :?
News to me....I think you're mistaken here.


Oh no I'm not wrong at all...

"The Mormon Concept of God

Although there is certainly disagreement among Mormon scholars concerning some precise points of doctrine, it is safe to say the LDS church currently teaches that God is, in effect, (1) a contingent being, who was at one time not God (not necessary and not eternally God); (2) limited in knowledge (not truly omniscient), power (not omnipotent), and being (not omnipresent or immutable); (3) one of many gods; (4) a corporeal (bodily) being, who physically dwells at a particular spatiotemporal location and is therefore not omnipresent like the biblical God (respecting His intrinsic divine nature-we are not considering the Incarnation of the Son of God here); and (5) a being who is subject to the laws and principles of a universe He did not create.

The Mormon concept of God can best be grasped by understanding the overall Mormon worldview and how the deity fits into it. Mormonism teaches that God the Father is a resurrected, "exalted" human being named Elohim who was at one time not God. Rather, he was once a mortal man on another planet who, through obedience to the precepts of his God, eventually attained exaltation, or godhood, himself through "eternal progression." The Mormon God, located in time and space, has a body of flesh and bone and thus is neither spirit nor omnipresent. Joseph Smith, founder and chief prophet of Mormonism, asserts:

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! . . . I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute this idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. . . It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible . . . Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.4 The Father has a body of flesh and bone as tangible as man's. . . . 5
(emphases added)

Omniscience, according to Mormon theology, is one of the attributes one attains when reaching godhood. Mormons appear to be divided, however, on the meaning of omniscience. It seems that some Mormons believe omniscience to mean that God has absolute and total knowledge about the past, present, and future.6 This view is consistent with the biblical view. However, the dominant Mormon tradition teaches that God increases in knowledge and, consequently, God does not have absolute and total knowledge.7 This is why Brigham Young, Smith's successor as president of the Mormon church, and his counselors pronounced (both in 1860 and 1865) as false doctrine Orson Pratt's claim that "God cannot learn new truths."8 Ironically, Pratt's claim is consistent with the biblical view of God. Wilford Woodruff, a recognized Mormon authority, taught, "God Himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion and will do so worlds without end."9 And yet another church authority, Lorenzo Snow, declared, "We will continue on improving, advancing, and increasing in wisdom, intelligence, power, and dominion, worlds without end."10

Once Elohim attained godhood, He then created this present world by "organizing" both eternally preexistent, inorganic matter and the preexistent primal intelligences from which human spirits are made.

Mormon scholar Hyrum L. Andrus explains:

Though man's spirit is organized from a pure and fine substance which possesses certain properties of life, Joseph Smith seems to have taught that within each individual spirit there is a central primal intelligence (a central directing principle of life), and that man's central primal intelligence is a personal entity possessing some degree of life and certain rudimentary cognitive powers before the time the human spirit was organized.11

For this reason, Joseph Smith wrote that "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be."12 In other words, man's basic essence or primal intelligence is as eternal as God's and was not created by God.

The Mormon God, by organizing this world out of preexistent matter, has granted these organized spirits the opportunity to receive physical bodies, pass through mortality, and eventually progress to godhood-just as this opportunity was given him by his Father God. Consequently, if human persons on earth faithfully obey the precepts of Mormonism they, too, can attain godhood like Elohim before them. Based on the statements of church authorities, some Mormon scholars contend that a premortal spirit is "organized" by God through "spirit birth." In this process, human spirits are somehow organized through literal sexual relations between our Heavenly Father and a mother god, whereby they are conceived and born as spirit children prior to entering the mortal realm (although all human persons prior to spirit birth existed as intelligences in some primal state of cognitive personal existence).13 Since the God of Mormonism was himself organized (or spirit-birthed) by his God, who himself is a "creation" of yet another God, and so on forever, Mormonism teaches that the God over this world is a contingent being in an infinite lineage of gods.14 This is why Joseph Smith can declare, "Hence, if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? . . . I will preach the plurality of the Gods."15

Brigham Young clearly understood the logic of Smith's theology: "How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds."16 Thus, Mormonism is a polytheistic religion which denies that God is a necessary being who has eternally existed as God.

Mormonism therefore teaches that certain basic realities have always existed and are indestructible even by God. In other words, God came from the universe; the universe did not come from God (although he did form this planet out of preexistent matter). For Mormonism, God, like man, is merely another creature in the universe. In the Mormon universe, God is not responsible for creating or sustaining matter, energy, natural laws, human personhood, moral principles, the process of salvation (or exaltation), or much of anything. In fact, instead of the universe being subject to Him (which is the biblical view), the Mormon God is subject to the universe. The Mormon God is far from omnipotent. He is not the God of the Bible."

http://www.4truth.net/site/c.h.....of_God.htm

So to each their own but Mormons are not Christians in the sense of 'Christian'.

Their 'theology' does not share ANY of the traditional views of God as found in Judaism or Christianity [or even Hinduism and Islam!].

No offense to you but Mormonism is a total fraud as far as a belief system goes but - that's not to say that Mormons are in some way 'bad people' because they believe in nonsense - they're just seriously misguided.


First of all, quotes without sufficient citation are pure BS and second of all, siting a secondary source on any religion is not valid. Secondary to that is your "research" is only from dubious second hand stories of "true" quotes and information. In other words you are using something akin to using wikipedia in a university paper. The information is not reliable. If you were to bring out the scriptures, talks from the church leaders etc, etc - church doctrine in other words - from reliable sources such as official LDS sites, I may concede the point. Otherwise it is moot.

In all honestly I think that the response to my stating my religion is offensive. I do not believe that this thread was intended as a Mormon bashing thread, nor do I believe that it was intended to argue which religion is "best." I did not make any derogatory statements towards any other religion in my post and I respect the right to believe that none will be made of mine. We are all hopefully mature enough here to accept our differences without bashing them.

Panther, I am surprised at your post. You commented on how you dislike and don't want others to claim your religion is a "cult" or make derogatory comments about it and yet you do so to my religion and JW. If you wish to have a common courtesy extended to you, it is not without reason to ask the same of you.


I'm not bashing Mormons and did you check the link I provided? The citations are there in the foot notes:

Notes

1 Joseph Smith, History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 7 vols., introduction and notes, B.H. Roberts, 2d rev. ed. (Salt Lake City: The Deseret Book Company, 1978), 6:305. (Hereafter HC).

2 Saint Augustine, City of God (Garden City, N.Y.: Image Books, 1958), 5.10.

3 See Thomas V. Morris, Our Idea of God: An Introduction to Philosophical Theology (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1991), 119-38; and Ronald H. Nash, The Concept of God (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1983), pp. 73-83.

4 HC, 6:305-6.

5 Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22.

6 See, for example, Bruce R. McConkie, "The Seven Deadly Heresies," speech at Brigham Young University, 1 June 1980.

7 For an overview of the differing Mormon views on God's omniscience, see Blake T. Ostler, "The Mormon Concept of God," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 17 (Summer 1984): pp. 76-80.

8 According to Oslter (in Ibid., 76), these official pronouncements are recorded in James R. Clark, ed., Messages of the First Presidency, 2 vols. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1965-75), 2:214-23; and Millennial Star 26 (21 Oct. 1865): pp. 658-60.

9 Wilford Woodruff in Journal of Discourses, by Brigham Young, President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, His Two Counsellors, the Twelve Apostles, and Others, 26 volumes, reported by G.D. Watt (Liverpool: F.D. Richards, 1854-1886), 6:120. (Hereafter JD).

10 Conference Report, April 1901, p. 2.

11 Hyrum L. Andrus, God, Man and the Universe (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1968), p. 175.

12 Doctrine and Covenants, 93:29.

13 Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966), pp. 386-87, 516-17, 750-51.

14 See HC, 6:305-12.

15 HC, 6:476,474. See also McConkie, p. 577.

16 Brigham Young in JD, 7:333.

http://www.4truth.net/site/c.h.....of_God.htm

So there it is - those ARE valid quotes. Either you do not know the facts of your faith or you're embarrassed by them. I once got a book from a Mormon missionary called "Gospel Principles" and in that book all this was outlined - especially that quote from Smith about God being once a human like us and he got to be God by following the "gospel principles".

I really think your argument about the source is moot as this material can be found through ex-Mormon sites as well...

Joseph Smith, founder and chief prophet of Mormonism, asserts:

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! . . . I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute this idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. . . It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible . . . Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.4 The Father has a body of flesh and bone as tangible as man's. . . . 5


Source: 5 Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22.

So if you genuinely didn't know these things you ought to do some serious research into your faith - talk to the Mormon elders and if they are honest - they will admit these facts about the tradition. Of course people newly coming to the Church are not taught these things right away - it comes later.

I posted these things not to bash Mormons but to inform people of the truth.
don muntean





Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 2262
Reputation: 34.9Reputation: 34.9Reputation: 34.9
votes: 8
Location: Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AutumnFalls wrote:
don muntean wrote:
AutumnFalls wrote:
don muntean wrote:
AutumnFalls wrote:
mrsocko wrote:
Quote:
Christian, specifically LDS (also known as Mormon)


I've read some accounts of Mormonism which show it to be very close to historical Christianity and then some accounts that don't.

Do LDS believe Jesus is God? Do they believe in the Trinity?
I personally believe it is. We believe that Jesus is the Son of God. As for the Trinity, we don't believe it. We believe God, Christ and the Holy Spirit to be three separate beings. I'm a bit unsure as to what you mean by historical Christianity. Are you referring to New Testament Christianity? If that is the case, yes I believe we do, in so far as we have a prophet and apostles organized in much the same way as it was in biblical times.


Mormons also believe that God was once a human like us! :?
News to me....I think you're mistaken here.


Oh no I'm not wrong at all...

"The Mormon Concept of God

Although there is certainly disagreement among Mormon scholars concerning some precise points of doctrine, it is safe to say the LDS church currently teaches that God is, in effect, (1) a contingent being, who was at one time not God (not necessary and not eternally God); (2) limited in knowledge (not truly omniscient), power (not omnipotent), and being (not omnipresent or immutable); (3) one of many gods; (4) a corporeal (bodily) being, who physically dwells at a particular spatiotemporal location and is therefore not omnipresent like the biblical God (respecting His intrinsic divine nature-we are not considering the Incarnation of the Son of God here); and (5) a being who is subject to the laws and principles of a universe He did not create.

The Mormon concept of God can best be grasped by understanding the overall Mormon worldview and how the deity fits into it. Mormonism teaches that God the Father is a resurrected, "exalted" human being named Elohim who was at one time not God. Rather, he was once a mortal man on another planet who, through obedience to the precepts of his God, eventually attained exaltation, or godhood, himself through "eternal progression." The Mormon God, located in time and space, has a body of flesh and bone and thus is neither spirit nor omnipresent. Joseph Smith, founder and chief prophet of Mormonism, asserts:

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! . . . I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute this idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. . . It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible . . . Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.4 The Father has a body of flesh and bone as tangible as man's. . . . 5
(emphases added)

Omniscience, according to Mormon theology, is one of the attributes one attains when reaching godhood. Mormons appear to be divided, however, on the meaning of omniscience. It seems that some Mormons believe omniscience to mean that God has absolute and total knowledge about the past, present, and future.6 This view is consistent with the biblical view. However, the dominant Mormon tradition teaches that God increases in knowledge and, consequently, God does not have absolute and total knowledge.7 This is why Brigham Young, Smith's successor as president of the Mormon church, and his counselors pronounced (both in 1860 and 1865) as false doctrine Orson Pratt's claim that "God cannot learn new truths."8 Ironically, Pratt's claim is consistent with the biblical view of God. Wilford Woodruff, a recognized Mormon authority, taught, "God Himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion and will do so worlds without end."9 And yet another church authority, Lorenzo Snow, declared, "We will continue on improving, advancing, and increasing in wisdom, intelligence, power, and dominion, worlds without end."10

Once Elohim attained godhood, He then created this present world by "organizing" both eternally preexistent, inorganic matter and the preexistent primal intelligences from which human spirits are made.

Mormon scholar Hyrum L. Andrus explains:

Though man's spirit is organized from a pure and fine substance which possesses certain properties of life, Joseph Smith seems to have taught that within each individual spirit there is a central primal intelligence (a central directing principle of life), and that man's central primal intelligence is a personal entity possessing some degree of life and certain rudimentary cognitive powers before the time the human spirit was organized.11

For this reason, Joseph Smith wrote that "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be."12 In other words, man's basic essence or primal intelligence is as eternal as God's and was not created by God.

The Mormon God, by organizing this world out of preexistent matter, has granted these organized spirits the opportunity to receive physical bodies, pass through mortality, and eventually progress to godhood-just as this opportunity was given him by his Father God. Consequently, if human persons on earth faithfully obey the precepts of Mormonism they, too, can attain godhood like Elohim before them. Based on the statements of church authorities, some Mormon scholars contend that a premortal spirit is "organized" by God through "spirit birth." In this process, human spirits are somehow organized through literal sexual relations between our Heavenly Father and a mother god, whereby they are conceived and born as spirit children prior to entering the mortal realm (although all human persons prior to spirit birth existed as intelligences in some primal state of cognitive personal existence).13 Since the God of Mormonism was himself organized (or spirit-birthed) by his God, who himself is a "creation" of yet another God, and so on forever, Mormonism teaches that the God over this world is a contingent being in an infinite lineage of gods.14 This is why Joseph Smith can declare, "Hence, if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? . . . I will preach the plurality of the Gods."15

Brigham Young clearly understood the logic of Smith's theology: "How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds."16 Thus, Mormonism is a polytheistic religion which denies that God is a necessary being who has eternally existed as God.

Mormonism therefore teaches that certain basic realities have always existed and are indestructible even by God. In other words, God came from the universe; the universe did not come from God (although he did form this planet out of preexistent matter). For Mormonism, God, like man, is merely another creature in the universe. In the Mormon universe, God is not responsible for creating or sustaining matter, energy, natural laws, human personhood, moral principles, the process of salvation (or exaltation), or much of anything. In fact, instead of the universe being subject to Him (which is the biblical view), the Mormon God is subject to the universe. The Mormon God is far from omnipotent. He is not the God of the Bible."

http://www.4truth.net/site/c.h.....of_God.htm

So to each their own but Mormons are not Christians in the sense of 'Christian'.

Their 'theology' does not share ANY of the traditional views of God as found in Judaism or Christianity [or even Hinduism and Islam!].

No offense to you but Mormonism is a total fraud as far as a belief system goes but - that's not to say that Mormons are in some way 'bad people' because they believe in nonsense - they're just seriously misguided.


First of all, quotes without sufficient citation are pure BS and second of all, siting a secondary source on any religion is not valid. Secondary to that is your "research" is only from dubious second hand stories of "true" quotes and information. In other words you are using something akin to using wikipedia in a university paper. The information is not reliable. If you were to bring out the scriptures, talks from the church leaders etc, etc - church doctrine in other words - from reliable sources such as official LDS sites, I may concede the point. Otherwise it is moot.

In all honestly I think that the response to my stating my religion is offensive. I do not believe that this thread was intended as a Mormon bashing thread, nor do I believe that it was intended to argue which religion is "best." I did not make any derogatory statements towards any other religion in my post and I respect the right to believe that none will be made of mine. We are all hopefully mature enough here to accept our differences without bashing them.

Panther, I am surprised at your post. You commented on how you dislike and don't want others to claim your religion is a "cult" or make derogatory comments about it and yet you do so to my religion and JW. If you wish to have a common courtesy extended to you, it is not without reason to ask the same of you.


For those who are not familiar with Joseph Smith's King Follet Discourse, made in April 7, 1844, here is the text as it appears in the History of the Church:

"I will prove that the world is wrong, by showing what God is. I am going to enquire after God; for I want you all to know him, and to be familiar with him; and if I am bringing you to a knowledge of him, all persecutions against me ought to cease. You will then know that I am his servant; for I speak as one having authority."

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible, - I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form - like yourselves in all the person, image and very form as a man . . ."

"I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of being God is. What sort of being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why he interferes with the affairs of men."

". . .I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see."

". . . he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible."

"Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you" (History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 304-306, see also, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, pp. 345-347). (See also D&C 130:22).

http://www.angelfire.com/ca5/real/lds2.htm
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 2463
Reputation: 131.2
votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's a great church - has lots of historical baggage but has tried to do better - but the 'one' true church - not! There is NO "one true church" or ONE true path - all paths have some answers none has all the answers. God is not so narrow as to exclude peoples of other faiths from His Kingdom. I know you won't agree but - that's a fact.


The one true church is Catholic in the true meaning of the word Catholic(universal). At it's most basic belief the Christian church is about believing Jesus is Lord and Saviour. The Bible says everyone will eventually believe this and God will reject no one.

Is that Universal enough for you!
CPP





Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 244
Reputation: 10.5
votes: 1
Location: Too close to Quebec

PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
Quote:
It's a great church - has lots of historical baggage but has tried to do better - but the 'one' true church - not! There is NO "one true church" or ONE true path - all paths have some answers none has all the answers. God is not so narrow as to exclude peoples of other faiths from His Kingdom. I know you won't agree but - that's a fact.


The one true church is Catholic in the true meaning of the word Catholic(universal). At it's most basic belief the Christian church is about believing Jesus is Lord and Saviour. The Bible says everyone will eventually believe this and God will reject no one.

Is that Universal enough for you!


Just words! And what is God?
teenagetory





Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Posts: 369
Reputation: 30.4Reputation: 30.4Reputation: 30.4
votes: 1
Location: Halifax

PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I go to a Presbyterian Chirch which broke off from the Presbyterian Church of Canada over SSM. Our services are more like what one would find from any evangelical church rather than the declining mainline ones
DavidK





Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1520
Reputation: 68.5
votes: 5
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

teenagetory wrote:
I go to a Presbyterian Chirch which broke off from the Presbyterian Church of Canada over SSM. Our services are more like what one would find from any evangelical church rather than the declining mainline ones


So basically, they declined to accept something that goes against fundamental Christian teachings – Good! That’s more than I can say for the United Church and our so-called Liberal Roman Catholic, politicians that just couldn’t wait to approve SSM. Hypocrites.
KerryForrest





Joined: 22 Jul 2009
Posts: 16
Reputation: 2.8Reputation: 2.8
Location: Renfrew, On

PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was confirmed United, had issue with what seemed to be a church with no stand on anything, so why believe any of it. Thought I was atheist till I learned the term agnostic.

Searching for spiritual fulfillment I discovered Asatru. Like many new age faiths, it was hard to swallow long term, but it was based upon the Norse mythology and I felt the personal responsibility angle called to my soul. Not an active follower now, but I still believe in Imperfect Deities and personal responsibilities for one's actions.

Just can't swallow the concept of if I did something, someone can just forgive me and all is good. I believe all I did is with me and its up to me to atone if I do ill by my own actions.
leeky sweek





Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 1


PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am Evangelical :)
fiscalconservative





Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Posts: 1043
Reputation: 49.9Reputation: 49.9Reputation: 49.9Reputation: 49.9Reputation: 49.9
votes: 6

PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a Christian who has lost faith in organized religion. Everybody has got 10 different interpretations of the same line and nobody is clearly right. Hundreds of thousands of people have died over small theological disputes.

There is core to Christianity thats clear. Love thy neighbour, don't kill, etc. After that you have people debating if the Catholics practice idol worship, or Calvin vs Luther...etc.

I know lots of good people on both sides of those debates. Since they are all good people, I don't think God sweats the details either.
Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 5 of 8

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next  


 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Whats your Religion (or lack of one)?

phpBBCopyright 2001, 2005 phpBB