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tred





Joined: 23 Dec 2007
Posts: 9


PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SFrank85 wrote:
The highly Christian renascence period also just happened to be the most peaceful time in human history.


Sorry, I don't see your point, the dark ages and the inquisitions (Spanish/Papal/Portuguese/Roman) were all highly Christian periods in Europe as well, weren't they?
SFrank85





Joined: 03 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are trying to imply something about the crusades, all they were was a defensive more against Islamic expansionism.

However, maybe you should do some research into Hitler, because time and time again in his book, he slanders Jews and Christians all the time. You also want to talk about the Roman Catholic Church involvement, if it was not for the church using their churches as refuge for the Jews, there would be far more deaths. As a matter of fact, the closer you were to Rome, the safer you were from Nazism and Fascism.

You are also missing the point. I don’t agree that all atheists are bad, but it is a fact that atheistic regimes do kill more willingly than other nations. You seem to confuse Atheistic regimes with secular regimes. Sweden is a very secular country, but is not, nor does not have a atheistic policy.
tred





Joined: 23 Dec 2007
Posts: 9


PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SFrank85 wrote:
If you are trying to imply something about the crusades, all they were was a defensive more against Islamic expansionism.

However, maybe you should do some research into Hitler, because time and time again in his book, he slanders Jews and Christians all the time. You also want to talk about the Roman Catholic Church involvement, if it was not for the church using their churches as refuge for the Jews, there would be far more deaths. As a matter of fact, the closer you were to Rome, the safer you were from Nazism and Fascism.

You are also missing the point. I don’t agree that all atheists are bad, but it is a fact that atheistic regimes do kill more willingly than other nations. You seem to confuse Atheistic regimes with secular regimes. Sweden is a very secular country, but is not, nor does not have a atheistic policy.


No, I didn't imply the crusades.

If by Hitler's book, you mean Mein Kampf, here's a quote from it and one from a speech;
“Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.”
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p.383.)

“May God Almighty give our work His blessing, strengthen our purpose, and endow us with wisdom and the trust of our people, for we are fighting not for ourselves but for Germany.”
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Berlin, February 1, 1933. )

There plenty more here - http://www.stephenjaygould.org.....itler.html

Yes,Sweden is a very secular country but it also has a high population of non-believers(46 - 85%).That was my point. (http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html)

I wouldn't say the Catholic church was all bad but here are some examples about the Pope;
- Although informed of the massive Nazi attacks of synagogues and Jewish business in on Kristallnacht 1938-NOV, Pope Pius XII issued no public criticism.
- Although informed during 1940 to 1943 of Nazi atrocities in at least Austria, Lithuania, Poland, Spain, and the Ukraine, (including deportations to death camps) he made no public comments. 4
- Pope Pius XII "...never explicitly spoke out against Hitler." Actually, this is in error. He did condemn Hitler in a speech to the College of Cardinals, one month AFTER the war ended. 2
-"He refused to join a resolution of the Allies condemning the Nazi crimes." 2
-"He never excommunicated any Nazi," 7 although he did excommunicate some German Catholics who supported cremation as an alternative to burial.
-"He never declared it a sin for Catholics to participate in the slaughter." 2
- In 1941 when asked about proposed anti-Jewish laws in Vichy France, Pius XII answered that the church condemned racism, but did not repudiate every rule against the Jews. 4

Quote:
You are also missing the point. I don’t agree that all atheists are bad, but it is a fact that atheistic regimes do kill more willingly than other nations. You seem to confuse Atheistic regimes with secular regimes. Sweden is a very secular country, but is not, nor does not have a atheistic policy

1)Show me the fact that atheistic regimes kill more willingly than other nations. Point me to it. I'll probably change my view if you can.
2) Could the problem not be the type of government rather than a non-belief in god.

If Bush drops a nuke on Iran, would that be a Christian atrocity? But if a regime that doesn't believe in a god does something bad then it's that non-belief that is the cause?

Maybe I should start a thread DOES RELIGION KILL?
Well, yes it does, the bible even says to Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests, Kill Witches, Kill Homosexuals, Kill for Hitting Dad, Kill Fortunetellers,Kill for Cursing Parents, Kill for Adultery, Kill False Prophets etc.etc. http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

This is the last one from me to you Frank. Thanks for your time, have fun. I'm heading to another forum and topic. If things get boring there, maybe we'll chat again.

Seasons Greetings
SFrank85





Joined: 03 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The United States is also a secular country. However Hitler stated that National socialism does not oppose the church or religion because at the time, he wanted to use it to create his own agenda. “Christ was an Aryan, and St. Paul used his doctrine to mobilise the criminal underworld and thus organise a proto-Bolshevism.”
-Hitler [Table-Talk, p. 143]

If Hitler was such a Christian or a man of God, why would he kill millions of Jews, when Jesus himself was a Jew? Hitler knew very little about Christianity, and it was the only way he could get support of the conservative Christians to get him into the possible position of power.

Hitler also hated organized religion because they turned against his policy on the Jews. Hitler was the type who would make you believe he was a Christian, while in actual fact was trying to distort the truth to make it suit his policies.
Adolf Hitler's parents were Roman Catholic. He attended church as a boy, but renounced all religions, as a young man. His experiences as a soldier in WW1 brought him to the belief that religions are mainly for the benefit of the religious leaders, such as Bishops, Cardinals, and the Pope.
crazymamma





Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 1011
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Location: The kitchen

PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tred wrote:
Thanks for your time, have fun. I'm heading to another forum and topic. If things get boring there, maybe we'll chat again.

Seasons Greetings



Huh?

And WE have the reputation of being smug and arrogant?

BTW Christ is the reason for the season.
SFrank85





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Location: Toronto - Scarborough Southwest

PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the name of creating their version of a religion-free utopia, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong produced the kind of mass slaughter that no Inquisitor could possibly match. Collectively these atheist tyrants murdered more than 100 million people.
Jason Kauppinen





Joined: 01 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tred and I have produced coherent arguments against this anti-atheist hysteria.

In response, certain people on this thread have displayed the full extent of their intellect by.... repeating the original statement.
gc





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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SFrank85 wrote:
Once you do not have a belief in god, you are less fearful of the consequences, and thus do what you want and that included killing millions of people.

Are you saying that the only reason you are a good person is that you are afraid that God will punish you if you aren't?
gc





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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tred wrote:

I repeat:
Premise 1: totalitarian fascists are atheists.
Premise 2: totalitarian fascism is bad.
Conclusion: Atheism is bad.
This is known as a fallacy.

Premise 1: Stalin and Hitler have moustaches.
Premise 2: Stalin and Hitler are bad.
Conclusion: Men with moustaches are bad.
I don't think so.

If Stalin,Hitler and Pol Pot all wore black pants, does that mean that all men in black pants are bad?

Exactly!!!

I couldn't have said it better myself.
Craig
Site Admin




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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
SFrank85 wrote:
Once you do not have a belief in god, you are less fearful of the consequences, and thus do what you want and that included killing millions of people.

Are you saying that the only reason you are a good person is that you are afraid that God will punish you if you aren't?


Having clearly defined beliefs gives you a clear moral compass. If you make up your own rules based on what suits you at the time then chances are you are going to make some dubious decisions. That is not to say that atheists are not capable of being good people. It is just my opinion that statistically speaking, those that adhere to clearly defined values are morally stronger.
Craig
Site Admin




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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
tred wrote:

I repeat:
Premise 1: totalitarian fascists are atheists.
Premise 2: totalitarian fascism is bad.
Conclusion: Atheism is bad.
This is known as a fallacy.

Premise 1: Stalin and Hitler have moustaches.
Premise 2: Stalin and Hitler are bad.
Conclusion: Men with moustaches are bad.
I don't think so.

If Stalin,Hitler and Pol Pot all wore black pants, does that mean that all men in black pants are bad?

Exactly!!!

I couldn't have said it better myself.


To carry this fallacy further...

Because one correlation is invalid, all correlations must be invalid.

Just because wearing black pants has no bearing on being a bad person doesn't mean that all attributes have no bearing.

His statement is largely meaningless.
gc





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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
Having clearly defined beliefs gives you a clear moral compass. If you make up your own rules based on what suits you at the time then chances are you are going to make some dubious decisions. That is not to say that atheists are not capable of being good people. It is just my opinion that statistically speaking, those that adhere to clearly defined values are morally stronger.

Christians pick and choose their morals like anyone else, if they didn't they would be stoning homosexuals to death.

There are also circumstances were the bible is not clear about what the right thing to do is. In these cases studies have shown that there is no real difference between what Christians and atheists would do.
gc





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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
To carry this fallacy further...

Because one correlation is invalid, all correlations must be invalid.

Just because wearing black pants has no bearing on being a bad person doesn't mean that all attributes have no bearing.

His statement is largely meaningless.

Of course, correlation is a prerequisite for causation, I don't think anyone would argue otherwise. The point is that correlation does not necessarily mean causation, especially when that correlation is based on a few anecdotes. The onus is on you to prove that atheism is the cause of evil.
gc





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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was just browsing another thread, and I think Craig said it best.
Quote:
It doesn't even matter if he was Christian. He didn't kill in the name of God. He hated the government. Even if he was a Christian he wasn't motivated by religion.

Just replace "Christian" with "atheist", "God" with "no God" and "religion" by "lack of religion"
Craig
Site Admin




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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gc wrote:
The point is that correlation does not necessarily mean causation, especially when that correlation is based on a few anecdotes. The onus is on you to prove that atheism is the cause of evil.


Funny how the onus is always on me to prove something. It is easy to sit back and poke holes in other people's arguments - never offering anything of substance yourself.

My point was that his fallacy of logic suggested the lack of causation. Correlations, especially significant ones, suggest a relationship. The onus should really be on you to prove otherwise.
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