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cosmostein





Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 7436
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votes: 21
Location: The World

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
The argument I generally hear boils down to "a Christian did it, so it is the church's fault". Applying that same yardstick to the atheism gets you the flame war you are witnessing here.


People have been killing and justifying it through God, Land, Flags, Pride, or whatever for years.

I would imagine A "lack of faith" has killed as many as faith?

But that's just me.
tred





Joined: 23 Dec 2007
Posts: 9


PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
The argument I generally hear boils down to "a Christian did it, so it is the church's fault". Applying that same yardstick to the atheism gets you the flame war you are witnessing here.


Christians have been know to kill heretics or atheists for not complying to their beliefs. An athiest simply doesn't believe in magical beings and has nobody telling them to kill a child if it curses a parent (Matthew 15:4) People die because of religion not because of atheism. Atheism doesn't have any directives to kill. Atheism is not a religion just a lack of belief in something because of a lack of evidence.

Premise 1: totalitarian fascists are atheists.
Premise 2: totalitarian fascism is bad.
Conclusion: Atheism is bad.

Can you spot the fallacy?
If Stalin,Hitler and Pol Pot all wore black pants, does that mean that all men in black pants are bad?

Here's a link you people can check out.
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/i.....atrocities

If after reading the material at the above link, you people still don't agree that atheism wasn't the cause of the atrocities carried out by Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot, then maybe you can show me how totalitarian fascism necessarily follows from atheism.

A secondary question...
Would it be possible to believe in god and still commit the same "sins"? If Stalin could commit the same crimes as an atheists or a believer they pretty much cancel each other out and you're still left with all the things the WERE and ARE committed in the name of religion. ie. An atheist would not kill a heretic or believer or over "holy" land etc.

More here http://richarddawkins.net/arti.....Dawkinsnet

Premise 1: Handguns are a direct cause of some death and destruction
Conclusion: Handguns are bad

Premise 1: Religion is a direct cause of some death and destruction (check a newspaper, how many atheist have you seen mentioned, how many have have shot doctors at abortion clinics etc)
Conclusion: Religion is bad

If you believe Jesus made a great sacrifice when he was crucified, maybe I can demonstrate how religion has warped your thinking.

Who made the greater sacrifice, a non-believer dying while trying to save someone (drowning, in a burning building or whatever) OR Jesus dying on the cross for your sins. John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” If you answered Jesus, what was the sacrifice? Wouldn't it be death for only three days out of eternity (because he was resurrected) and the pain of crucifixion? Wouldn't that three days be spent in heaven? Don't some people have themselves crucified as a religious observance? Don't many of the victims of torture, disease etc. suffer a lot more and a lot longer than Jesus did? Was that really a grand statement of love? Wouldn't preventing harm to innocent children be a better statement?
SFrank85





Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2269
Reputation: 59.8
votes: 4
Location: Toronto - Scarborough Southwest

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tred wrote:
kwlafayette wrote:
The argument I generally hear boils down to "a Christian did it, so it is the church's fault". Applying that same yardstick to the atheism gets you the flame war you are witnessing here.


Christians have been know to kill heretics or atheists for not complying to their beliefs. An athiest simply doesn't believe in magical beings and has nobody telling them to kill a child if it curses a parent (Matthew 15:4) People die because of religion not because of atheism. Atheism doesn't have any directives to kill. Atheism is not a religion just a lack of belief in something because of a lack of evidence.

Premise 1: totalitarian fascists are atheists.
Premise 2: totalitarian fascism is bad.
Conclusion: Atheism is bad.

Can you spot the fallacy?
If Stalin,Hitler and Pol Pot all wore black pants, does that mean that all men in black pants are bad?

Here's a link you people can check out.
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/i.....atrocities

If after reading the material at the above link, you people still don't agree that atheism wasn't the cause of the atrocities carried out by Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot, then maybe you can show me how totalitarian fascism necessarily follows from atheism.

A secondary question...
Would it be possible to believe in god and still commit the same "sins"? If Stalin could commit the same crimes as an atheists or a believer they pretty much cancel each other out and you're still left with all the things the WERE and ARE committed in the name of religion. ie. An atheist would not kill a heretic or believer or over "holy" land etc.

More here http://richarddawkins.net/arti.....Dawkinsnet

Premise 1: Handguns are a direct cause of some death and destruction
Conclusion: Handguns are bad

Premise 1: Religion is a direct cause of some death and destruction (check a newspaper, how many atheist have you seen mentioned, how many have have shot doctors at abortion clinics etc)
Conclusion: Religion is bad

If you believe Jesus made a great sacrifice when he was crucified, maybe I can demonstrate how religion has warped your thinking.

Who made the greater sacrifice, a non-believer dying while trying to save someone (drowning, in a burning building or whatever) OR Jesus dying on the cross for your sins. John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” If you answered Jesus, what was the sacrifice? Wouldn't it be death for only three days out of eternity (because he was resurrected) and the pain of crucifixion? Wouldn't that three days be spent in heaven? Don't some people have themselves crucified as a religious observance? Don't many of the victims of torture, disease etc. suffer a lot more and a lot longer than Jesus did? Was that really a grand statement of love? Wouldn't preventing harm to innocent children be a better statement?


I think that it is not a coincidence that the most inhuman people and states in history have been atheistic regimes. Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot. Once you do not have a belief in god, you are less fearful of the consequences, and thus do what you want and that included killing millions of people. Are all atheist evil? No. But there are a lot of atheists in the past that have done evil never seen before in history. More people died under atheism than under any religion combined!


Last edited by SFrank85 on Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
mrsocko





Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 2463
Reputation: 131.2
votes: 8
Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If you answered Jesus, what was the sacrifice? Wouldn't it be death for only three days out of eternity (because he was resurrected) and the pain of crucifixion? Wouldn't that three days be spent in heaven? Don't some people have themselves crucified as a religious observance? Don't many of the victims of torture, disease etc. suffer a lot more and a lot longer than Jesus did? Was that really a grand statement of love? Wouldn't preventing harm to innocent children be a better statement?


Why don't you read a bible before you start trashing Christianity.

Jesus descended into hell. As far as suffering he was scourged before his crucifixion with lashes that had steel barbs on them. Watch "The Passion of the Christ" if you want to see what happened. The bible says by his stripes we are healed.
The bible says all the worlds sins were placed on him when he died. All the pain from every murder, rape, beating, lie, etc. What do you think it would take to kill God? The same pain it takes to kill a man? Jesus was both God and man. He suffered the worst death anyone ever did. The pressure of these sins being placed on him was so great that it would have killed an ordinary man. In the Garden of Gethesmane he sweated blood which relieved the pressure on his body otherwise he would have had a stroke.

He died for everyone of us and now we all go to Heaven. Even the innocent child you are so concerned about. Jesus was concerned about that child too. That's why he reconciled God to man with his death on the cross.

P.S. Merry Christ-mass
crazymamma





Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 1011
Reputation: 71.8
votes: 14
Location: The kitchen

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I usually don't touch these types of threads with a 10 foot pole but some how today I find myself unable to let it go.

Playing the game of counting up the dead in the name of whatever is just so missing the point. Be someone atheist, Muslim, Communist, Christian, whatever, the common denominator of all atrocities thru the ages is mankind, mankind continually amazes me with its ability to underestimate just plain Evil and the hunger for power that it craves to feed. Evil is canny like a feral dog, straight forward but willing to use any mantle to manipulate the masses by conning and incrementally perverting them and their beliefs to a point where folks start believing they are participating in the name of Evils "greater good".

I hear the steps of evil every day and hope that this time mankind has learned its lessons and will recognize it for what it really is. Sadly I think my hope is merely just postponed disappointment and horror.
truth4freedom





Joined: 14 Jan 2007
Posts: 255
Reputation: 23.7Reputation: 23.7
votes: 3
Location: Bible Belt USA!

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you remove the Biblical God from the equation then you are left with yourself as god to do as you wish. No one can tell you that murder, rape, bigotry, etc are wrong and therefore you will see the most vile of abuses occur. That is not to say that believing in a god exempts you from committing evil acts. Many god's command that you do so. Only one true God, the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, Yahweh, provides relief for the sin and depravity that kills the soul and damns the spirit. Atheism is one one of the quickest ways to accomplish a degeneration into hell, both figurative and literal, and all that come with it.
tred





Joined: 23 Dec 2007
Posts: 9


PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SFrank85 wrote:
tred wrote:
kwlafayette wrote:
The argument I generally hear boils down to "a Christian did it, so it is the church's fault". Applying that same yardstick to the atheism gets you the flame war you are witnessing here.


Christians have been know to kill heretics or atheists for not complying to their beliefs. An athiest simply doesn't believe in magical beings and has nobody telling them to kill a child if it curses a parent (Matthew 15:4) People die because of religion not because of atheism. Atheism doesn't have any directives to kill. Atheism is not a religion just a lack of belief in something because of a lack of evidence.

Premise 1: totalitarian fascists are atheists.
Premise 2: totalitarian fascism is bad.
Conclusion: Atheism is bad.

Can you spot the fallacy?
If Stalin,Hitler and Pol Pot all wore black pants, does that mean that all men in black pants are bad?

Here's a link you people can check out.
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/i.....atrocities

If after reading the material at the above link, you people still don't agree that atheism wasn't the cause of the atrocities carried out by Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot, then maybe you can show me how totalitarian fascism necessarily follows from atheism.

A secondary question...
Would it be possible to believe in god and still commit the same "sins"? If Stalin could commit the same crimes as an atheists or a believer they pretty much cancel each other out and you're still left with all the things the WERE and ARE committed in the name of religion. ie. An atheist would not kill a heretic or believer or over "holy" land etc.

More here http://richarddawkins.net/arti.....Dawkinsnet

Premise 1: Handguns are a direct cause of some death and destruction
Conclusion: Handguns are bad

Premise 1: Religion is a direct cause of some death and destruction (check a newspaper, how many atheist have you seen mentioned, how many have have shot doctors at abortion clinics etc)
Conclusion: Religion is bad

If you believe Jesus made a great sacrifice when he was crucified, maybe I can demonstrate how religion has warped your thinking.

Who made the greater sacrifice, a non-believer dying while trying to save someone (drowning, in a burning building or whatever) OR Jesus dying on the cross for your sins. John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” If you answered Jesus, what was the sacrifice? Wouldn't it be death for only three days out of eternity (because he was resurrected) and the pain of crucifixion? Wouldn't that three days be spent in heaven? Don't some people have themselves crucified as a religious observance? Don't many of the victims of torture, disease etc. suffer a lot more and a lot longer than Jesus did? Was that really a grand statement of love? Wouldn't preventing harm to innocent children be a better statement?


I think that it is not a coincidence that the most inhuman people and states in history have been atheistic regimes. Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot. Once you do have a belief in god, you are less fearful of the consequences, and thus do what you want and that included killing millions of people. Are all atheist evil? No. But there are a lot of atheists in the past that have done evil never seen before in history. More people died under atheism than under any religion combined!


Premise 1: totalitarian fascists are atheists.
Premise 2: totalitarian fascism is bad.
Conclusion: Atheism is bad.

Can you spot the fallacy?

Show me how totalitarian fascism necessarily follows from atheism or I'll have to assume you can quote items but don't read them.
tred





Joined: 23 Dec 2007
Posts: 9


PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsocko wrote:
Quote:
If you answered Jesus, what was the sacrifice? Wouldn't it be death for only three days out of eternity (because he was resurrected) and the pain of crucifixion? Wouldn't that three days be spent in heaven? Don't some people have themselves crucified as a religious observance? Don't many of the victims of torture, disease etc. suffer a lot more and a lot longer than Jesus did? Was that really a grand statement of love? Wouldn't preventing harm to innocent children be a better statement?


Why don't you read a bible before you start trashing Christianity.

Jesus descended into hell. As far as suffering he was scourged before his crucifixion with lashes that had steel barbs on them. Watch "The Passion of the Christ" if you want to see what happened. The bible says by his stripes we are healed.
The bible says all the worlds sins were placed on him when he died. All the pain from every murder, rape, beating, lie, etc. What do you think it would take to kill God? The same pain it takes to kill a man? Jesus was both God and man. He suffered the worst death anyone ever did. The pressure of these sins being placed on him was so great that it would have killed an ordinary man. In the Garden of Gethesmane he sweated blood which relieved the pressure on his body otherwise he would have had a stroke.

He died for everyone of us and now we all go to Heaven. Even the innocent child you are so concerned about. Jesus was concerned about that child too. That's why he reconciled God to man with his death on the cross.

P.S. Merry Christ-mass

The bible doesn't say where he went immediately after he died. That's an interpretation, some would disagree. It certainly doesn't say he was suffering in hell. If anything, he was just talking.

I wouldn't place to much stock in a movie. I think the biblical account although differing from book to book, is a better account than an anti-semitic nut case like Gibson could give.

You say "He died for everyone of us and now we all go to Heaven. Even the innocent child you are so concerned about." Does every man woman and child go to heaven? Even people that have denied the holy spirit or never heard of Jesus?

We're getting of topic so we'll just have to agree to disagree. My view is that everyday, people suffer more and longer then he did. He is a god and could take any pain without batting an eye and he was gone for only a few days. It was his rule that this had to happen as well.

P.S. Happy Saturnalia/Sol Invictus


Last edited by tred on Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:56 pm; edited 2 times in total
tred





Joined: 23 Dec 2007
Posts: 9


PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

truth4freedom wrote:
If you remove the Biblical God from the equation then you are left with yourself as god to do as you wish. No one can tell you that murder, rape, bigotry, etc are wrong and therefore you will see the most vile of abuses occur. That is not to say that believing in a god exempts you from committing evil acts. Many god's command that you do so. Only one true God, the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, Yahweh, provides relief for the sin and depravity that kills the soul and damns the spirit. Atheism is one one of the quickest ways to accomplish a degeneration into hell, both figurative and literal, and all that come with it.


First of all, try reading your old testament if you want to see depravity and killing. And Jesus was no choir boy, he advocated killing a child for cursing a parent (Mat 15:4), had someone steal horse for him, threw a tantrum in a temple etc).

If you do a little research you might find that morality doesn't come from religion. That's why people around the world have such similar morals even though their religions differ. Try getting to know some atheist as well, you might find they aren't as bad as you think.

The least religious nations on the planet just happen to be the most progressive and best place to live (the U.S. being the exception). Here's an article that explains why.
http://edge.org/3rd_culture/pa.....index.html
SFrank85





Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2269
Reputation: 59.8
votes: 4
Location: Toronto - Scarborough Southwest

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The least religious nation in the world is China. So much for that theory!
tred





Joined: 23 Dec 2007
Posts: 9


PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:30 pm    Post subject: Does Atheism Kill? Reply with quote

The topic is "Does Atheism Kill?" NOT "Do Some Atheists Kill?". Has anyone yet shown how atheism kills. How can a non-belief in a god, leprechaun or anything else kill?

I can show passages in the old and new testament that direct people to kill. What could there be about a non-belief in a god that would cause someone to kill?

If you say, you can't have morality without god, please back it up. (ie. Did other civilizations survive without morality? How do you explain morality displayed in other primates?) This is from Encyclopædia Britannica concerning ethics and morality - http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9106054
Virtually every human society has some form of myth to explain the origin of morality. In the Louvre in Paris there is a black Babylonian column with a relief showing the sun god Shamash presenting the code of laws to Hammurabi (died c. 1750 BC), known as the Code of Hammurabi. The Old Testament account of God's giving the Ten Commandments to Moses (flourished 14th–13th century BC) on Mount Sinai might be considered another example. In the dialogue Protagoras by Plato (428/27–348/47 BC), there is an avowedly mythical account of how Zeus took pity on the hapless humans, who were physically no match for the other beasts. To make up for these deficiencies, Zeus gave humans a moral sense and the capacity for law and justice, so that they could live in larger communities and cooperate with one another.

That morality should be invested with all the mystery and power of divine origin is not surprising. Nothing else could provide such strong reasons for accepting the moral law. By attributing a divine origin to morality, the priesthood became its interpreter and guardian and thereby secured for itself a power that it would not readily relinquish. This link between morality and religion has been so firmly forged that it is still sometimes asserted that there can be no morality without religion. According to this view, ethics is not an independent field of study but rather a branch of theology (see moral theology).

There is some difficulty, already known to Plato, with the view that morality was created by a divine power. In his dialogue Euthyphro, Plato considered the suggestion that it is divine approval that makes an action good. Plato pointed out that, if this were the case, one could not say that the gods approve of such actions because they are good. Why then do they approve of them? Is their approval entirely arbitrary? Plato considered this impossible and so held that there must be some standards of right or wrong that are independent of the likes and dislikes of the gods. Modern philosophers have generally accepted Plato's argument, because the alternative implies that if, for example, the gods had happened to approve of torturing children and to disapprove of helping one's neighbours, then torture would have been good and neighbourliness bad.

Happy Holidays
tred





Joined: 23 Dec 2007
Posts: 9


PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SFrank85 wrote:
The least religious nation in the world is China. So much for that theory!


Did you read the article?
SFrank85





Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2269
Reputation: 59.8
votes: 4
Location: Toronto - Scarborough Southwest

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do Atheists kill? Most don’t. Do Atheist states kill? Time and time again. Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Communist China, Cuba. Is this all a coincidence? I think not!

Examples of Christian Europe, where it was the period of universal manhood suffrage, abolition of slavery, anti-child labour laws. A complete turnaround!
SFrank85





Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2269
Reputation: 59.8
votes: 4
Location: Toronto - Scarborough Southwest

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The highly Christian renascence period also just happened to be the most peaceful time in human history.
tred





Joined: 23 Dec 2007
Posts: 9


PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SFrank85 wrote:
Do Atheists kill? Most don’t. Do Atheist states kill? Time and time again. Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Communist China, Cuba. Is this all a coincidence? I think not!

Examples of Christian Europe, where it was the period of universal manhood suffrage, abolition of slavery, anti-child labour laws. A complete turnaround!



I keep letting Hitler slide, but you should check your facts about Hitler being an atheist and his Catholic church support.

Can you not see they are all totalitarian/fascists states. That is the problem, not atheism. Atheism is not the cause, it's the form of rule that is the problem. Is Sweden committing atrocities?

I repeat:
Premise 1: totalitarian fascists are atheists.
Premise 2: totalitarian fascism is bad.
Conclusion: Atheism is bad.
This is known as a fallacy.

Premise 1: Stalin and Hitler have moustaches.
Premise 2: Stalin and Hitler are bad.
Conclusion: Men with moustaches are bad.
I don't think so.

If Stalin,Hitler and Pol Pot all wore black pants, does that mean that all men in black pants are bad?

Show me how totalitarian fascism follows from atheism. Come on, show me. If they worshipped the easter bunny would you blame that?

Maybe someone else can explain it to you better. Sorry, that's the best I can do.


Last edited by tred on Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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