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Riley W





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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I pray the secularization of this nation will STOP.

I am proud when I read the Ontario and Nova Scotia legislatures have the Lord's Prayer.

I am proud that "God" is in our great nation's national anthem.

I am proud that "God" is recognized in the preamble of our constitution.

ENOUGH of the secularization.

We are a Christian nation, and always will be.

AMEN.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
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votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

westmanguy wrote:
I pray the secularization of this nation will STOP.

I am proud when I read the Ontario and Nova Scotia legislatures have the Lord's Prayer.

I am proud that "God" is in our great nation's national anthem.

I am proud that "God" is recognized in the preamble of our constitution.

ENOUGH of the secularization.

We are a Christian nation, and always will be.

AMEN.

We are not a Christian nation. But keep praying to a non existent entity if you must.
I am proud we are a secular nation and religion is disappearing from the public sector. Once it does completely, then and only then will this nation finally be a great one.
mrsocko





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Location: Southwestern Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I pray the secularization of this nation will STOP.

I am proud when I read the Ontario and Nova Scotia legislatures have the Lord's Prayer.

I am proud that "God" is in our great nation's national anthem.

I am proud that "God" is recognized in the preamble of our constitution.

ENOUGH of the secularization.

We are a Christian nation, and always will be.


God is in control. Don't worry about it man. He's got a plan. He'll work it out.
Triple_R





Joined: 20 Sep 2007
Posts: 111
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
westmanguy wrote:
I pray the secularization of this nation will STOP.

I am proud when I read the Ontario and Nova Scotia legislatures have the Lord's Prayer.

I am proud that "God" is in our great nation's national anthem.

I am proud that "God" is recognized in the preamble of our constitution.

ENOUGH of the secularization.

We are a Christian nation, and always will be.

AMEN.

We are not a Christian nation. But keep praying to a non existent entity if you must.


Prove that God does not exist. Otherwise you have no basis for making the statement that you did.

Quote:

I am proud we are a secular nation and religion is disappearing from the public sector.


No, it's not.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper frequently says "God bless Canada".

Put that in your intolerant anti-Christian bigoted pipe, and smoke it.

Quote:
Once it does completely, then and only then will this nation finally be a great one.


LOL

Yeah, like the officially atheistic nations of the old USSR and current Red China are "great" nations. Maybe in power they were/are, but not in the lives of the people in those countries.

You secularist folks tend to spit on people's freedom of religion when you get into power, and after conversing with you on this thread, I can see why.

It is unbelievable just how full of anger, bile, closed-mindedness, hatred, and intolerance you are.
Triple_R





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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
The hypocrisy here is mind numbing. We are not a Christian nation and we are not a white nation. We are not an English nation either. Yes, they are all majorities, but we are none of the above.


I never said that we are a white, or English, nation. Do not put words into my mouth, sir.

However, we show particular respect to the English and French languages since they are the predominant languages of Canada. If that offends folks who speak a language other than these two, we don't present all government services in even more languages just to satisfy those small statistical minorities.

Likewise, I see nothing wrong with showing particular respect for the Judeo-Christian heritage of the majority of Canadians in ceremonial fashions like God rightly being in our national athem, and in prayers before certain governmental meetings if that is desired by most people attending that meeting.

Just like if you're non-English and non-French we expect you to learn to become at least functional in at least one of the two languages, I see nothing wrong with expecting people to show some modicum of repsect and toleration for the predominant religious beliefs of the country.

You don't have to share them, just like a 1st or 2nd generation Asian immigrant can speak in his or her own language in his or her own home and when not engaging the government directly, but you shouldn't be so indignant and petty over simple ceremonial respect given to the predominant beliefs of Canadians. Quite the contrary, you should be respectful of what the majority of your countrymen believe.

Quote:


If someone wants to pray anywhere anytime, go right ahead. But it should not be part of the government. There should not be a time specified by the government for it either.


That's your opinion, and frankly, I have yet to see you make a good argument for it.

Quote:


There is no argument for God that is acceptable.


There are plenty of arguments for the existence of God that are acceptable to billions of people. You are not the sole arbiter, my arrogant friend, for what is an acceptable argument for the existence of God.

Quote:
You make a claim that God exists, it is up to you to prove it.


Why? Why shouldn't it be up to you to prove that God doesn't exist?

Our universe exists either due to the actions of a Creator (i.e. God), or due to pure, unadulterated chance.

These are the only two possibilities - the first possiblity branches off into many other possibilities (i.e. "What is the nature of the Creator?"), but at the core of the question "why does the universe exist?" there are only two possible answers.

I support theory A. You support theory B.

Why is the onus of proof on me (who at least has the vast majority of humanity agreeing with me), and not on you?

You believe that the whole of existence is due to pure, unadulterated chance (what a sad existence devoid of meaning this would be, by the way). Well, prove it then - particularly since most people don't agree with you.

Quote:
The Lords Prayer is offensive to me...


Your atheist ramblings are offensive to me. That doesn't mean that I'm going to try to censor you, though. You don't have a right to not be offended, sir.

Quote:
... if done by my government in a government building. If I see it being done, it would be equally offensive for my to yell over it, and state "there is no evidence God exists" or "praise Allah" or "Christ probably never existed"

If you are offended by any of those statements to be uttered by government workers in a government building in an organized fashion and still think the Lords prayer would be acceptable, you are a raving hypocrite.


It's not hypocritical at all. There's no reason why statistical minority worldviews should carry the exact same weight (and hence presence in government) as statistical majority worldviews.
theatheistjew





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Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prove that God does not exist. Otherwise you have no basis for making the statement that you did.
************************
I can't prove that God doesn't exist. But I do know there is as much evidence God exists as there is that there is an invisible man who lives under my bed. Should I pray to that man in government buildings? Would that be OK?

No, it's not.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper frequently says "God bless Canada".

Put that in your intolerant anti-Christian bigoted pipe, and smoke it.
****************************
We are a secular nation in principle but we are not there YET. Are you saying we aren't a secular nation? What is in your pipe?


LOL

Yeah, like the officially atheistic nations of the old USSR and current Red China are "great" nations. Maybe in power they were/are, but not in the lives of the people in those countries.

You secularist folks tend to spit on people's freedom of religion when you get into power, and after conversing with you on this thread, I can see why.

It is unbelievable just how full of anger, bile, closed-mindedness, hatred, and intolerance you are.
*************************
There is no hatred on my part. No matter how you want to spin it. And by the way, just to fill you in, probably the most secular nation out there now is Sweden. They have between 50-75% atheist/agnostics in that country. In a few generations Canada will have a similar makeup.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Triple_R"]
theatheistjew wrote:
The hypocrisy here is mind numbing. We are not a Christian nation and we are not a white nation. We are not an English nation either. Yes, they are all majorities, but we are none of the above.


I never said that we are a white, or English, nation. Do not put words into my mouth, sir.

However, we show particular respect to the English and French languages since they are the predominant languages of Canada. If that offends folks who speak a language other than these two, we don't present all government services in even more languages just to satisfy those small statistical minorities.

Likewise, I see nothing wrong with showing particular respect for the Judeo-Christian heritage of the majority of Canadians in ceremonial fashions like God rightly being in our national athem, and in prayers before certain governmental meetings if that is desired by most people attending that meeting.
*************************
Well then we disagree tremendously. And the law is phasing out biblical rantings in the public sector for reasons I've cited.

Just like if you're non-English and non-French we expect you to learn to become at least functional in at least one of the two languages, I see nothing wrong with expecting people to show some modicum of repsect and toleration for the predominant religious beliefs of the country.
***********************
Language is fact. Religious belief is the total opposite. Predominant religion? Catholicism? Baptists? Even they can't agree on the words of the Lords Prayer.

You don't have to share them, just like a 1st or 2nd generation Asian immigrant can speak in his or her own language in his or her own home and when not engaging the government directly, but you shouldn't be so indignant and petty over simple ceremonial respect given to the predominant beliefs of Canadians. Quite the contrary, you should be respectful of what the majority of your countrymen believe.
*************************
I'm respectful that everyone has the right to believe whatever they want. They just have not place in the public sector.



There are plenty of arguments for the existence of God that are acceptable to billions of people. You are not the sole arbiter, my arrogant friend, for what is an acceptable argument for the existence of God.
**************************
There is nothing based on fact, only faith based.


Why? Why shouldn't it be up to you to prove that God doesn't exist?
**************************
If I said an invisible man lives under my bed, are you supposed to accept it? Is it up to me to prove the existence of the man, or up to you to disprove it?

Our universe exists either due to the actions of a Creator (i.e. God), or due to pure, unadulterated chance.
***************************
And we see that there is tremendous randomness that occurs everywhere. There is no evidence that any being created the universe.

These are the only two possibilities - the first possiblity branches off into many other possibilities (i.e. "What is the nature of the Creator?"), but at the core of the question "why does the universe exist?" there are only two possible answers.

I support theory A. You support theory B.
***********************
You support it based on faith. Who created the creator?

Why is the onus of proof on me (who at least has the vast majority of humanity agreeing with me), and not on you?
*********************
I've explained that. The vast majority of humans thought the earth was flat at one time, and that the earth was the center of the universe and the sun revolved around the earth. The majority's faith doesn't matter when it comes to evidence.

You believe that the whole of existence is due to pure, unadulterated chance (what a sad existence devoid of meaning this would be, by the way). Well, prove it then - particularly since most people don't agree with you.
*************************
Actually it is not sad. It is sad to me that you have to try to make something out of nothing in an attempt to give your life meaning. I would rather be realistic than be the equivalent of a drug addict who can't face reality. BTW, what it the meaning of life if God exists?


Your atheist ramblings are offensive to me. That doesn't mean that I'm going to try to censor you, though. You don't have a right to not be offended, sir
************************
I do have the right to be offended. And you'll see that the Lords Prayer will not be said in Town Halls anymore very soon. The intelligence of the law will win out.


It's not hypocritical at all. There's no reason why statistical minority worldviews should carry the exact same weight (and hence presence in government) as statistical majority worldview.
********************************
Says the wilfully ignorant hypocrite.
theatheistjew





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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the atheist meaning of life. I just found this recent post by another atheist:

Friday, September 21, 2007
Why do atheists always present the cold hard facts?

Instead of talking about their feelings once in a while? I've been asked this question by an acquaintance. This person has tried to read "The God Delusion" and "The End of Faith". I guess I can see why she thinks that atheists always present cold hard facts, and why this might seem depressing to some. The fact is though that this is what people want to hear. Cold hard facts of why we are atheists and not theists. Christians would be just as disappointed that we're atheist because it just feels right, as we are disappointed to hear why Christians choose to believe in their God.

Yes, at the point in my life where I am now, atheism feels right. I've done the research, weighed the cold and hard facts, went through some troubling times of fearing death and what is going to happen in a million years or so, and then arrived at atheism. I'm through with the weighing, the searching, the suffering... now it's time to feel good about where I am. That is not to say that I'm not open for new and exiting facts and findings. But yes, like any "true" Christian (and they all say they are true Christians) I am at peace with my life and with my world. The fact that I have this one life to live (no more and no less) makes me want to do it better, live more intensely, do more good, enjoy my children more, strive for my goals with a little more motivation. No, it doesn't depress me to think that after this life it's all over, because I'll know that I did everything I could to live my life to the fullest. I feel relief not to have to live up to some invented deity's standards. I don't have to do well because of the promise of heaven or the threat of hell. I have the freedom to be the best I can be just because I want to. How liberating, how grand!

No, it's not all about cold and hard facts with atheists. As a matter of fact some of the most spiritual people I know are atheists. They inspire me with their ability to live and enjoy, to just soak it all up.

I went for a walk today. I live near a street that has trees growing on both sides... the leaves were yellow and red, the air was clear, the sun was shining... and I sent a silent thank you to the world. There is nothing quite as beautiful as a sunny day in early fall. Hope you all enjoy it as much as I do.
http://atheisthomeschool.blogspot.com/
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great your atheist,

We get it.

Can you start a tread that has to do with this topic elsewhere so that every topic on the Canadian Politics board does not become sidetracked with this issue.
theatheistjew





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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Can you start a tread that has to do with this topic elsewhere so that every topic on the Canadian Politics board does not become sidetracked with this issue.

Actually I did start a thread about atheism in Coffee Talk. But I feel the need to justify separation of church and state, and this is very relevant when it comes to Canadian politics, especially with what John Tory is proposing.
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
Quote:

Can you start a tread that has to do with this topic elsewhere so that every topic on the Canadian Politics board does not become sidetracked with this issue.

Actually I did start a thread about atheism in Coffee Talk. But I feel the need to justify separation of church and state, and this is very relevant when it comes to Canadian politics, especially with what John Tory is proposing.


Create one within Canadian Politics on the issue,

And justify it all you want in there. I am all for free speech and everyones opinion but how many of these topics have to go down the same road?
Ruth





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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
I'm actually going to church with a Fundy friend of mine as payback for fixing my car.

Hah hah. Seriously? What denomination? I just have to know. It sounds like someone's (gasp!) praying for you. :wink:

With respect to the debates, sadly I missed them. But, it sounds a lot like McGuinty got his rear handed to him... not really a surprise.
To be honest though, I don't see the PC's getting more than a minority government, if they win at all.
In fact, I don't see the Liberals getting more than a minority either.
I'm also expecting a low voter turnout.

--Ruth
Triple_R





Joined: 20 Sep 2007
Posts: 111
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
Regarding the atheist meaning of life.


There is no meaning of life if you're an atheist.

Quote:
I just found this recent post by another atheist:

Friday, September 21, 2007
Why do atheists always present the cold hard facts?


You don't present cold hard facts. You make naturalistic assumptions all the time.

Quote:


Instead of talking about their feelings once in a while? I've been asked this question by an acquaintance. This person has tried to read "The God Delusion" and "The End of Faith".


I would recommend that you read "The Twilight of Atheism".

Quote:
I guess I can see why she thinks that atheists always present cold hard facts, and why this might seem depressing to some. The fact is though that this is what people want to hear. Cold hard facts of why we are atheists and not theists. Christians would be just as disappointed that we're atheist because it just feels right, as we are disappointed to hear why Christians choose to believe in their God.

Yes, at the point in my life where I am now, atheism feels right.


So, are you open to ever believing in God?

Quote:
I've done the research, weighed the cold and hard facts, went through some troubling times of fearing death and what is going to happen in a million years or so, and then arrived at atheism.


And what makes you think that Christians haven't done the same, and have simply felt that the evidence in favour of God's existence is stronger than you think it is?

Quote:
I'm through with the weighing, the searching, the suffering... now it's time to feel good about where I am.


Where you are is wrong.

Quote:
That is not to say that I'm not open for new and exiting facts and findings. But yes, like any "true" Christian (and they all say they are true Christians) I am at peace with my life and with my world. The fact that I have this one life to live (no more and no less) makes me want to do it better, live more intensely,


Apparently, living it intensely means being an anti-Christian/anti-religion bigot all the time.

Quote:
... do more good, enjoy my children more, strive for my goals with a little more motivation.


Apparently, your goals are over such grand, meaningful issues as the ceremonial aspects of political gatherings.

Quote:
No, it doesn't depress me to think that after this life it's all over, because I'll know that I did everything I could to live my life to the fullest.


Wow. What arrogance. Your every post just oozes with arrogance, and closed-mindedness.

So, you're basically saying that when your natural life is over, you'll know that you've never made a signale mistake in your life?

Quote:
I feel relief not to have to live up to some invented deity's standards.


I feel relief in knowing that there are universal standards of right and wrong that come from God, and which add meaning, and structure, to existence.

Quote:
I don't have to do well because of the promise of heaven or the threat of hell.


Christians don't believe that Heaven is gained through works. Christians believe that doing good is a reward in and of itself.

Quote:
I have the freedom to be the best I can be just because I want to. How liberating, how grand!


I have the freedom to be the best I can be because I know that there is a reason to want to be the best I can be - a reason linked to my creation, a reason linked to God.

Quote:


No, it's not all about cold and hard facts with atheists. As a matter of fact some of the most spiritual people I know are atheists.


You can't be spiritual if you don't believe in a human spirit which transcends the physical realm.
A spiritual atheist is an oxymoron.

Quote:
They inspire me with their ability to live and enjoy, to just soak it all up.


There's nothing inspirational about an existence that is entirely temporary, and not rooted in anything permanent or lasting.

Quote:


I went for a walk today. I live near a street that has trees growing on both sides... the leaves were yellow and red, the air was clear, the sun was shining... and I sent a silent thank you to the world.


LOL

There's nothing that I find funnier than an atheist who personifies the world or the universe. ;)

Your soul is trying to tell you something when you do that, but because your closed mind refuses to accept it, you end up personifing the world/universe instead of giving thanks to He who you owe your entire existence to, and hence thanks for such special moments in life.

Quote:
There is nothing quite as beautiful as a sunny day in early fall. Hope you all enjoy it as much as I do.
http://atheisthomeschool.blogspot.com/


Wow... do you put "atheist" in everything related to you? Is your person completely defined by atheism?
Triple_R





Joined: 20 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:

Well then we disagree tremendously. And the law is phasing out biblical rantings in the public sector for reasons I've cited.


No, it's not. We still have freedom of expression in this country, do we not?

By the way, do you oppose freedom of expression, AJ?

Quote:
Language is fact. Religious belief is the total opposite.


No, it's not the total opposite. Not always, anyway. You make all these bold proclimations and don't offer the slightest bit of evidence for them - then you demand evidence from those of us who believe in God?

Then you have the unmitigated gall to call me a hypocrite?! :shock: :lol:

Language shapes the world around us in a comprehensive way just as religious and/or secular beliefs do. Language, and religious/secular beliefs, both are integral aspects of our culture, and there's nothing wrong with any government respecting the culture of the people that it is governing.

Quote:
Predominant religion? Catholicism? Baptists? Even they can't agree on the words of the Lords Prayer.


Apparently, they'd rather have a version of the Lord's Prayer than none at all.

Christianity, in one denomination or another, is the predominant belief of Canadians.

Quote:
I'm respectful that everyone has the right to believe whatever they want. They just have no place in the public sector.


Sure they do, in a ceremonial fashion, if they are reflective of the predominant culture of the land. This is how every society that has ever existed has done things.

Quote:
There is nothing based on fact, only faith based.


There is plenty based on fact. There are numerous books that I could recommend to you if you're genuinely interested, and not the closed-minded soul that I think that you are.

Quote:
If I said an invisible man lives under my bed, are you supposed to accept it?


Your thinking on this issue is terribly flawed. The notion that our universe, due it's incredible elements of design and detail, has by extension a Creator, is not akin to believing in invisible men living in bizarre places.

It is perfectly respectful concept of why our universe, and we, exist.

Quote:
Is it up to me to prove the existence of the man, or up to you to disprove it?


Your analogy is truly pathetic, as your invisible man does not offer a possible explanation to why our universe, and we, exist... whereas God does.

Quote:

And we see that there is tremendous randomness that occurs everywhere.


Actually, there is a great deal of non-random patterns and rules of physics that govern our universe.

Quote:
There is no evidence that any being created the universe.


There is plenty of evidence that our universe has a Creator.

Quote:

You support it based on faith.


I support it based on my analysis of arguments both for, and against, the theory that our universe has an Intelligent Creator.

I have faith in my particular religion, but my belief in a Creator arises largely from the analysis that I mentioned to you.

Not everbody approaches these questions with the naturalistic binders that you have on yourself, sir.

Quote:
Who created the creator?


The Creator is a Constant. There has to be a constant - either chance is a constant, or the Creator is a constant.

There has to be a first cause which transcends all others. I believe that cause is God. You believe that it's chance, or luck.

Quote:

I've explained that. The vast majority of humans thought the earth was flat at one time, and that the earth was the center of the universe and the sun revolved around the earth. The majority's faith doesn't matter when it comes to evidence.


I haven't seen you present any evidence whatsoever that chance is the first cause.

Fact of the matter is, sir, that you're taking at least as much on faith as I am. You're simply putting your faith in chance, and luck.

Quote:

Actually it is not sad.


It is very sad, and it is very depressing.

Quote:
It is sad to me that you have to try to make something out of nothing in an attempt to give your life meaning. I would rather be realistic than be the equivalent of a drug addict who can't face reality.


You aren't facing reality. Reality is rooted in God.

Quote:
BTW, what it the meaning of life if God exists?


If God exists, then we exist and continue to exist because God wanted us to exist, and as such the tapestry of human existence is rooted in the desire, and will, of a Being that is more marvelous than our wildest imaginations.

Our existence is rooted in a gorgeous act of creation, and we are all like the finest of paintings, only with souls and spirits that contain hopes and dreams and aspirations and loves that help to define who we are.

Within the context of a permanent existence, these hopes and dreams and aspirations and loves metastasize into eternal memories of meaning, and purpose, that will guide us through eternity.

Quote:

I do have the right to be offended.


That's basically what I said.

Quote:
And you'll see that the Lords Prayer will not be said in Town Halls anymore very soon. The intelligence of the law will win out.


There's nothing intelligent about your secular fundamentalism, sir. You're just as much a 'fundy' as any Christian fundamentalist is - you simply have a different 'faith' that you're a fundamentalist of.

What a silly man you've chosen to be - you intensely focus on ceremonial aspects of political gatherings, and harp on them constantly.

Quote:

Says the wilfully ignorant hypocrite.


I'm not wilfully ignorant, and I'm no more of a hypocrite than you are. There's nothing hypocritical about appropriately arguing that numbers should count for something.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ruth wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
I'm actually going to church with a Fundy friend of mine as payback for fixing my car.

Hah hah. Seriously? What denomination? I just have to know. It sounds like someone's (gasp!) praying for you. :wink:

With respect to the debates, sadly I missed them. But, it sounds a lot like McGuinty got his rear handed to him... not really a surprise.
To be honest though, I don't see the PC's getting more than a minority government, if they win at all.
In fact, I don't see the Liberals getting more than a minority either.
I'm also expecting a low voter turnout.

--Ruth

I'm expecting a strong voting turn out and a Liberal majority. And believe me, if Tory didn't commit political suicide with his idiocy, I'd be upset by this.

Baptists. We joke all the time. They are an older retired couple.
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Ontario provincial debate thread

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