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theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hamiltonguyo wrote:
Quote:
I went to secular schools and nobody called religion stupid or religious believers idiots. Maybe times have changed because many kids are now enlightened (progress).


So its progress that kids take a closed mind now? Is it progress that more kids are doing drugs, sleeping around, and killing each other? Is it progress that kids are taught to accept only one way of thinking?
**************************************
What way of thinking? Public schools teach fact. you can still indoctrinate your kids at home and at places of worship. Kids have taken drugs and slept around for many many years now. And killing each other? C'mon. If anything it is because of soft immigration rules and kids coming from intolerant homes that makes one snap, but again it doesn't happen that much.


Quote:
When you take a child who at first doesn't have a clue and indoctrinate them with the beliefs of parents, that are completely based on faith and usually the religion of the parents, it is a form of brainwashing. Brainwashing is abuse.


So are we brainwashing our kids to speak only English because we don't teach them French. Are we brainwashing our children by telling them there is no god?
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Nobody teaches children that there isn't a God? Can you give an example? Public schools just teach things that have evidence attached to them. When I went to school French was mandatory up to grade 8 I think. We are a bilingual nation and many jobs open up to those who can speak both.

Anything that you teach kids could be said to be "brainwashing".
*******************************
Anything that isn't backed up with fact done over and over and over again is brainwashing.

If teaching a child about their religion is abuse then teaching them that religious people are stupid is also abuse.
***********************
Again, nobody teaches that religious people are stupid. A teacher would get fired if he did that.


Quote:
Atheist is simply no belief in God, and that stems from the fact there is no evidence that God has ever existed. I don't have kids btw, not that it matters.


Just because I believe in god doesn't mean I'm so stupid I don't know what atheism is.

In fact you are wrong. Atheism is disbelief in God because you KNOW he doesn't exist. What you described is Agnosticism, which is the lack of belief based on lack of proof.
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An agnostic says it is unknowable. I say that there is no proof of God so why consider his/her/its existence. You can call me an atheist or agnostic, but that is my stance. And no atheist I know says that he can prove God doesn't exist.

And i'm glad you don't have kids. We don't need more people who hate religious people.
**********************
Again, I don't hate religious people. I just want them to stay away from trying to get their myths to be part of the public sector.

Quote:
I'm not afraid of anyone. And being disgusted by someone like you is an honour to me.


Then stop posting on a Conservative forum.
**********************
This is a Tory forum. I support Stephen Harper. I don't support John Tory though. Oh, and that is funny that you call this a conservative forum and that I shouldn't post here. I'm sure the irony is lost on you.

Quote:
The bottom line is that I do not want my tax dollars or any public funds to help teach myths to children who don't know any better.


This exactly the sort of stuff they spew at school. They teach that anyone who believes in a religion is ignorant. They tell religious kids that all their beliefs are myths on the same level as santa clause and the easter bunny. At least we can 100% disprove santa clause and the easter bunny!
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Who says that? Not teachers. They would be fired if they did. Can you disprove that there is an invisible man that lives under my bed?

You need to learn to respect the beliefs and opinions of other people. We respect your disbelief in God, but you refuse to accept our belief.

*********************************
I respect those who respect separation of church and state. I'm actually going to church with a Fundy friend of mine as payback for fixing my car. And I talked both him and his wife to change their vote from PC to Liberal for the upcoming election because I told them that they would pay for Muslim schools and that our taxes will inevitably go up because there will have to be a different religious school on every street corner...just to be fair.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said the plan isn't the greatest, but its better and fairer than what we have. These aren't the real reasons you're opposed to it though. These are just the arguments you give to try and trick the people that don't agree with your agenda to bring about the downfall of their beliefs. The people who you sway with these arguments don't know how well the anti-religious brainwashing in schools is working.
*******************************************
My real reason is that I believe in separation of church and state. The government should have no involvement in religion period.




So you can only respect people that agree with your agenda? They have to agree with your definition of Church and State, in which the State prosecutes the church and churchgoers?
***************************************
You mean persecute and no that is not what I'm saying. My agenda (separation of church and state) is what makes Western civilization great. It gives people of all faiths the ability to believe whatever they want without worry of persecution.
Yes, I don't agree with anyone who wants to take a step back towards theocracy.
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
Reputation: 156.2Reputation: 156.2
votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if you guys are tired of BEAJ derailing discussions, why do you keep responding to him?
hamiltonguyo





Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 250
Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
So if you guys are tired of BEAJ derailing discussions, why do you keep responding to him?


Because i've had it with his anti-religion crap. Even when he is ignored he brings this agenda into everything. While I don't like most so-cons, I don't see this issue as a social issue, but an issue of fairness.

His ignorance of what really goes in schools is what really peeves me however.

The Christian club at our school was shut down because the school argued that allowing students to talk about religion in an organized manner on school property was improper. They tried to do the same to the Muslim association and only the fact that prayers are required on fridays, saved them from being shut down.

Yet somehow in our school it's ok to have a Gay Issues Club where the majority of the time (as I am told by some former christian members) is spent by the founders and the teacher-advisor bashing 1) Catholics and 2) to lesser extent other Christians.

If the trends continue we will become like France where you cannot even wear a crucifix in school because religion is forbidden.

Either we need to provide funding for religious schools OR we need to find a way to integrate religious students into the public system without forcing them to abandon their beliefs. For example: allowing Christian student organizations, Making a class in one's own religion mandatory AS WELL AS mandatory learning about all religions to create more tolerance, and imposing uniforms and stricter discipline on students.[/i]
Riley W





Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 857
Reputation: 35.5Reputation: 35.5Reputation: 35.5Reputation: 35.5
votes: 10
Location: Manitoba

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes I wished I live in the Deep South/Midwest of the United States where my Christian beliefs were the standard, were respected, and held up high by government.

In Canada I feel like my Christian beliefs come under attack every day.
Triple_R





Joined: 20 Sep 2007
Posts: 111
Reputation: 6.2Reputation: 6.2Reputation: 6.2Reputation: 6.2Reputation: 6.2Reputation: 6.2
votes: 2

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Part of me would like to see all religious schools in Ontario publically funded by the government just to spite intolerant, mean-spirited, and militant secularists/atheists, but... I think that in the long-term, it would be a bad policy.

I think that what would gradually happen over time is that you would have most Catholics going to Catholic schools, most Protestants going to a Protestant school, most Muslims going to a Muslim school, and almost all non-religious students going to the public school.

You'll have segregation along religious/secular lines... which, I think, would make relations between these various religious/secular groups far more contentious, and students themselves will probably be more closed-minded on some issues (less flexible in their thinking) due to meeting so few people in school who view the world differently than they do.

I understand what Tory is aiming for, and I understand where he is coming from, but long-term, I think that greater acceptance/integration of students of all faith backgrounds (including catholicism and christianity) within the public school system would be most ideal.

Still, to you atheists/agnostics/secularists who stand in the way of Christian student clubs, for example, you're the one's that are making Tory's policy suggestions more popular amongst many Ontario citizens by being so bloody intolerant of religious people.

Do you really blame folks for wanting to get out of an environment that they find is downright toxic towards their faith, and wanting a school that at least respects their faith?
torian





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 56
Reputation: 42.2Reputation: 42.2Reputation: 42.2Reputation: 42.2

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

can we, uh I don't know...get back to discussing the debate?

AJ- can you stop hijacking threads please?
biggie





Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1738
Reputation: 44Reputation: 44Reputation: 44Reputation: 44
votes: 10
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes... please stay on topic.
Riley W





Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 857
Reputation: 35.5Reputation: 35.5Reputation: 35.5Reputation: 35.5
votes: 10
Location: Manitoba

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know I get absolutely livid when I hear stories on the news where a atheist-secular group goes to Napanee Ontario to try to stop the Lord's prayer at the Council meeting...

...Even when NOBODY in that community complained about it.

I'll say it, I am intolerant towards atheists who want to change the heritage of this nation.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

westmanguy wrote:
I know I get absolutely livid when I hear stories on the news where a atheist-secular group goes to Napanee Ontario to try to stop the Lord's prayer at the Council meeting...

...Even when NOBODY in that community complained about it.

I'll say it, I am intolerant towards atheists who want to change the heritage of this nation.

Try to stay on topic or this tread will be closed:) I did write about having the Lords Prayer in a government building:
http://baconeatingatheistjew.b.....uncil.html

Why not sacrifice a chicken before the meetings start too and smear blood all over ones face?
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
Reputation: 156.2Reputation: 156.2
votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What government should do with education, is get out of it entirely. All schools should be privately run. Government just hands out money per child, and any parent is free to enroll their child anywhere they wish. Schools that attracted quality teachers, and had success educating children would get higher enrollment. Schools that only cared about keeping students with their peer group, and not whether the child could at the end of the year, would fall by the wayside. If religious schools were better schools, they would get the funding. If secular schools were better, they would get the funding. It would be so simple, if we could just get the bureaucrats out of the way.
Mac





Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 5500
Reputation: 104
votes: 35
Location: John Baird's riding...

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
It would be so simple, if we could just get the bureaucrats out of the way.

Exactly... but I'm not sure why the government needs to fund them at all.

-Mac
kwlafayette





Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 6155
Reputation: 156.2Reputation: 156.2
votes: 28
Location: Saskatoon Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you saying just do away with property taxes all together? That would be great, but then you get the "fairness" crowd shouting about how then some schools might be only for the "rich". Better not to advocate too much change at once. A lot of people like their universally bad public school system. Just like they love their universally bad health care system.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
What government should do with education, is get out of it entirely. All schools should be privately run. Government just hands out money per child, and any parent is free to enroll their child anywhere they wish. Schools that attracted quality teachers, and had success educating children would get higher enrollment. Schools that only cared about keeping students with their peer group, and not whether the child could at the end of the year, would fall by the wayside. If religious schools were better schools, they would get the funding. If secular schools were better, they would get the funding. It would be so simple, if we could just get the bureaucrats out of the way.

That is just as ridiculous as privatizing the courts and the police.
Who would monitor what is taught? What would a high school diploma mean? Might as well put kids in day care until they are 18. There has to be a standard of education. What you are proposing makes education useless and pointless.
gc





Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Posts: 1698
Reputation: 48.4Reputation: 48.4Reputation: 48.4Reputation: 48.4Reputation: 48.4
votes: 16
Location: A Monochromatic World

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwlafayette wrote:
What government should do with education, is get out of it entirely. All schools should be privately run. Government just hands out money per child, and any parent is free to enroll their child anywhere they wish. Schools that attracted quality teachers, and had success educating children would get higher enrollment. Schools that only cared about keeping students with their peer group, and not whether the child could at the end of the year, would fall by the wayside. If religious schools were better schools, they would get the funding. If secular schools were better, they would get the funding. It would be so simple, if we could just get the bureaucrats out of the way.


That sounds good in theory, but do you have any reason to believe that privately run schools would be more efficient with their money?
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