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theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

triple M wrote:
I really feltTory hit the nail on the head when it comes to Dalton he is just to damn complacent and if Ontario is going to get back to where it needs to be we need to do much better than that. I know many don't agree with Tory on FBS but can we afford another 4 years of directionless Government.

Slight progression and even stagnancy is preferred to stepping back into the Dark Ages.
I can't and won't vote for Tory because of his FBS stance. Children are the future and he has a plan that would have putrid and expensive consequences for Ontarians for decades to come.
triple M





Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 83
Reputation: 54.2

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have very strong convictions when it comes to that topic I my self don't feel it s that controversial bring private faith base schools up to public standards is a good thing. Those who point to this being divisive I don't really see thatare childeren in the Catholic system separated from other childeren the answer is a clear no why would it be any different for other faiths. I'm not sure about you but if the catolic model is the one being used it would be very good to take those 53 000 kids and put them into the public system. Another thing is public schools compared to catholic schools i really don't believe their is a major difference at least in my expierence I know that isn't offering much but when I would visit Farther Gotez or Henry carr or lets say Emery or Westview their wasn't really a significant difference in my view at least. I really get beack to though the 53 000 childeren outside the public system just because their faith alone isn't right and they deserve the same education in terms of standards that the other 95% of Otarian Students have.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

triple M wrote:
You have very strong convictions when it comes to that topic I my self don't feel it s that controversial bring private faith base schools up to public standards is a good thing. Those who point to this being divisive I don't really see thatare childeren in the Catholic system separated from other childeren the answer is a clear no why would it be any different for other faiths. I'm not sure about you but if the catolic model is the one being used it would be very good to take those 53 000 kids and put them into the public system. Another thing is public schools compared to catholic schools i really don't believe their is a major difference at least in my expierence I know that isn't offering much but when I would visit Farther Gotez or Henry carr or lets say Emery or Westview their wasn't really a significant difference in my view at least. I really get beack to though the 53 000 childeren outside the public system just because their faith alone isn't right and they deserve the same education in terms of standards that the other 95% of Otarian Students have.

They have a choice. Go to public school or pay for their education.
And we are not just talking 53,000 kids. IN the near future what is to stop 75% of children from attending faith based schools. What is to stop the Mormons or Buddhists, etc from having schools built for them from tax money just to be fair?
Anything that moves a Western country or region away from separation of church and state is regressive and not progressive. Maybe Tory should rename his team the Regressive Conservatives.
hamiltonguyo





Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 250
Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
triple M wrote:
I really feltTory hit the nail on the head when it comes to Dalton he is just to damn complacent and if Ontario is going to get back to where it needs to be we need to do much better than that. I know many don't agree with Tory on FBS but can we afford another 4 years of directionless Government.

Slight progression and even stagnancy is preferred to stepping back into the Dark Ages.
I can't and won't vote for Tory because of his FBS stance. Children are the future and he has a plan that would have putrid and expensive consequences for Ontarians for decades to come.


I'm tired of your constant attacks on religion. In your opinion religion is only negative, negative, negative. If we took the arguments you make in every thread, we could use them to argue for banning religions period.

As long as religion isn't indoctrination, but rather like an open discourse lead by those knowledgeable in your religion, there is nothing harmful to our kids in it. In fact right now we are more indoctrinated by the secularist school system then by any religion.

I think we do them much more damage by forcing them to be secularist. By making religious children victims of teachers and other students who don't like religion. How would u like it if your teachers and friends told you every time religion came up, that you were stupid because of your beliefs?

This is needed, desperately. Something has to be done to protect religious kids from this kind of mistreatment.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hamiltonguyo wrote:
theatheistjew wrote:
triple M wrote:
I really feltTory hit the nail on the head when it comes to Dalton he is just to damn complacent and if Ontario is going to get back to where it needs to be we need to do much better than that. I know many don't agree with Tory on FBS but can we afford another 4 years of directionless Government.

Slight progression and even stagnancy is preferred to stepping back into the Dark Ages.
I can't and won't vote for Tory because of his FBS stance. Children are the future and he has a plan that would have putrid and expensive consequences for Ontarians for decades to come.


I'm tired of your constant attacks on religion. In your opinion religion is only negative, negative, negative. If we took the arguments you make in every thread, we could use them to argue for banning religions period.

As long as religion isn't indoctrination, but rather like an open discourse lead by those knowledgeable in your religion, there is nothing harmful to our kids in it. In fact right now we are more indoctrinated by the secularist school system then by any religion.

I think we do them much more damage by forcing them to be secularist. By making religious children victims of teachers and other students who don't like religion. How would u like it if your teachers and friends told you every time religion came up, that you were stupid because of your beliefs?

This is needed, desperately. Something has to be done to protect religious kids from this kind of mistreatment.

You can make kids religious by brainwashing them at home or at church. I'm not against it. Parents bring children in the world have the right to abuse them that way if they like.

You may be sick of it, but there is such a thing as separation of church and state which makes Western civilization the best civilization. They don't have separation of church and state in most Muslim countries.
hamiltonguyo





Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 250
Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Separation of church and state is meant to protect religion not to force us all to attend schools where we are told we are stupid and are idiots.

And don't tell me this doesn't happen, because I live it as a High School student everyday.

And here you go again, saying that raising kids religious is "abuse".

Not a single person here has called you abusive for wanting to raise your kids atheist, and hating religions, but you insist on calling a large number of people abuses for raising their kids in THEIR religion.

You disgust me. You are more bigoted than most of the people you are afraid of.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hamiltonguyo wrote:
Separation of church and state is meant to protect religion not to force us all to attend schools where we are told we are stupid and are idiots.

And don't tell me this doesn't happen, because I live it as a High School student everyday.

And here you go again, saying that raising kids religious is "abuse".

Not a single person here has called you abusive for wanting to raise your kids atheist, and hating religions, but you insist on calling a large number of people abuses for raising their kids in THEIR religion.

You disgust me. You are more bigoted than most of the people you are afraid of.

I went to secular schools and nobody called religion stupid or religious believers idiots. Maybe times have changed because many kids are now enlightened (progress).
When you take a child who at first doesn't have a clue and indoctrinate them with the beliefs of parents, that are completely based on faith and usually the religion of the parents, it is a form of brainwashing. Brainwashing is abuse.
Atheist is simply no belief in God, and that stems from the fact there is no evidence that God has ever existed. I don't have kids btw, not that it matters.

I'm not afraid of anyone. And being disgusted by someone like you is an honour to me. The bottom line is that I do not want my tax dollars or any public funds to help teach myths to children who don't know any better.
Riley W





Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 857
Reputation: 35.5Reputation: 35.5Reputation: 35.5Reputation: 35.5
votes: 10
Location: Manitoba

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow BEAJ, you anti-religion intolerance is showing...

...I see to you its "bad" if 50% of the students moved to faith based schools.

Well if I lived in Ontario, and had a child, and Tory got his plan put through, I would put my kid in a Christian Evangelical school.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Separation of church and state is meant to protect religion not to force us all to attend schools where we are told we are stupid and are idiots.
*****************************
Separation of church and state means that the government does not get involved with faith issues and that it doesn't fund faith related causes. This way every faith can go their merry way without having to worry about the government getting in their way.
Ontario doesn't have full separation of church and state because we fund Catholic schools.
But thanks to Tory making it an issue, those days are numbered. He did some good.

You are free to go to Mormon school, home school, Scientology school, Baptist school or whatever other cult your parents indoctrinated you with...but not on government funds.
theatheistjew





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
Reputation: 11.2
votes: 10
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

westmanguy wrote:
Wow BEAJ, you anti-religion intolerance is showing...

...I see to you its "bad" if 50% of the students moved to faith based schools.

Well if I lived in Ontario, and had a child, and Tory got his plan put through, I would put my kid in a Christian Evangelical school.

**********************
It is bad because kids should be taught facts in school in not faith. It is also bad because it would be unbelievable expensive to the taxpayer if 50-75% of the children wound up going to faith based schools. It would become a red tape nightmare, and schools and busing would bleed the taxpayer to death. I'd rather have money blown on health care thank you very much.

Like I said, if people can respect separation of church and state, I can respect those people no matter what they believe.
Riley W





Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 857
Reputation: 35.5Reputation: 35.5Reputation: 35.5Reputation: 35.5
votes: 10
Location: Manitoba

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If 50-75% of kids moved to faith based schools then the 25-50% secular school kids could be sent to centralized secular schools in the region.

Not much red tape their...
hamiltonguyo





Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 250
Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I went to secular schools and nobody called religion stupid or religious believers idiots. Maybe times have changed because many kids are now enlightened (progress).


So its progress that kids take a closed mind now? Is it progress that more kids are doing drugs, sleeping around, and killing each other? Is it progress that kids are taught to accept only one way of thinking?


Quote:
When you take a child who at first doesn't have a clue and indoctrinate them with the beliefs of parents, that are completely based on faith and usually the religion of the parents, it is a form of brainwashing. Brainwashing is abuse.


So are we brainwashing our kids to speak only English because we don't teach them French. Are we brainwashing our children by telling them there is no god?

Anything that you teach kids could be said to be "brainwashing".

If teaching a child about their religion is abuse then teaching them that religious people are stupid is also abuse.


Quote:
Atheist is simply no belief in God, and that stems from the fact there is no evidence that God has ever existed. I don't have kids btw, not that it matters.


Just because I believe in god doesn't mean I'm so stupid I don't know what atheism is.

In fact you are wrong. Atheism is disbelief in God because you KNOW he doesn't exist. What you described is Agnosticism, which is the lack of belief based on lack of proof.

And i'm glad you don't have kids. We don't need more people who hate religious people.

Quote:
I'm not afraid of anyone. And being disgusted by someone like you is an honour to me.


Then stop posting on a Conservative forum.

Quote:
The bottom line is that I do not want my tax dollars or any public funds to help teach myths to children who don't know any better.


This exactly the sort of stuff they spew at school. They teach that anyone who believes in a religion is ignorant. They tell religious kids that all their beliefs are myths on the same level as santa clause and the easter bunny. At least we can 100% disprove santa clause and the easter bunny!

You need to learn to respect the beliefs and opinions of other people. We respect your disbelief in God, but you refuse to accept our belief.
hamiltonguyo





Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 250
Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
Separation of church and state is meant to protect religion not to force us all to attend schools where we are told we are stupid and are idiots.
*****************************
Separation of church and state means that the government does not get involved with faith issues and that it doesn't fund faith related causes. This way every faith can go their merry way without having to worry about the government getting in their way.
Ontario doesn't have full separation of church and state because we fund Catholic schools.
But thanks to Tory making it an issue, those days are numbered. He did some good.

You are free to go to Mormon school, home school, Scientology school, Baptist school or whatever other cult your parents indoctrinated you with...but not on government funds.


There you go again. EVERY RELIGION IS A CULT ACCORDING TO YOU!

While I don't think Tory's plan is the best possible, its the best currently out there. Its a matter of fairness. Why should religious people pay for schools that teach their kids to hate their parent's and their beliefs and values. Why should they be forced to pay for their mortal enemies? Why should they be forced to pay for the massive social engineering that happens in Public Schools?
hamiltonguyo





Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 250
Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5Reputation: 49.5

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theatheistjew wrote:
westmanguy wrote:
Wow BEAJ, you anti-religion intolerance is showing...

...I see to you its "bad" if 50% of the students moved to faith based schools.

Well if I lived in Ontario, and had a child, and Tory got his plan put through, I would put my kid in a Christian Evangelical school.

**********************
It is bad because kids should be taught facts in school in not faith. It is also bad because it would be unbelievable expensive to the taxpayer if 50-75% of the children wound up going to faith based schools. It would become a red tape nightmare, and schools and busing would bleed the taxpayer to death. I'd rather have money blown on health care thank you very much.




As I said the plan isn't the greatest, but its better and fairer than what we have. These aren't the real reasons you're opposed to it though. These are just the arguments you give to try and trick the people that don't agree with your agenda to bring about the downfall of their beliefs. The people who you sway with these arguments don't know how well the anti-religious brainwashing in schools is working.


Quote:
Like I said, if people can respect separation of church and state, I can respect those people no matter what they believe.


So you can only respect people that agree with your agenda? They have to agree with your definition of Church and State, in which the State prosecutes the church and churchgoers?
triple M





Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 83
Reputation: 54.2

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can someone tell me what the Catholic System does wrong or what are the problems with it to me it seems to be quite effective in what it does. If it is the model for the non-catholic FBS I'm really not worried the Catholic system has been very valuable to Ontario and if we expand in the good it does I really don't see the harm many are claiming.
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